Episode 36: Imposter Syndrome

Imposter Syndrome is real! We've all been through it and it can be damaging to a career. This week we talk about what it is, some characteristics of it, how to deal with it, and much more!

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  Pat: 0:31

  Hey, everybody. Welcome back to a brand new episode of breaking down the bites as usual. I'm your host, pat, you can find me on Twitter @layer8packet. That's the number eight. You can find Kyle who's riding shotgun as always. He's on Twitter too @danath256. And of course you can find the show. On Twitter @breakinbytespod all of our links will be in the show notes. If you wanna come say hello, we are pretty active on Twitter. So do come say hello. And if you like the show if you're joining us for the first time, welcome if you like the show don't forget to subscribe on your platform of choice. So, Hey Kyle, back for another week, how you doing?

  Kyle: 1:11

  Yeah, pretty good. I'm excited. Soup season is here.

  Pat: 1:15

  Oh, yes, you're a big soup guy.

  Kyle: 1:16

  yeah.

  Pat: 1:18

  Big soup guy, big foodie.

  Kyle: 1:20

  yep. Just like to eat

  Pat: 1:22

  That's you?

  Kyle: 1:23

  That's all I do.

  Pat: 1:24

  Yeah, I wish I like to eat too, but you know, the the old belt buckle shows for it, so

  Kyle: 1:30

  You gotta get those stretchy pants.

  Pat: 1:32

  I know. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta get the sweats. I gotta bring the eighties back. Get the sweats, just go places in your sweatpants. Remember you used to do that. It's unreal. Like what do. Although, I will say, now that we're from home, we don't really go places. I'm in like mesh shorts all day

  Kyle: 1:46

  oh, nice.

  Pat: 1:47

  I love it. My mesh shorts and CROs. That's where I'm at in life as a dad, I'm rocking those mesh shorts and the CROs. I can't,

  Kyle: 1:59

  are the new balance, right.

  Pat: 2:00

  love him. I'll tell you what. I was a big anti CRO guy for a long time, but man, I like I'm on my second pair now. I can't get enough. They're awesome. Oh yeah. Big time. So, no episode last week I actually bought a car last week. so I brought a, I bought a brand new car, not that we had a clunker, I really liked our Mazda CX five, but it was time to find, upgrade to something a little bigger. I bought the car when I had no kids and now we have two kids. So obviously there is a need for a larger vehicle. So, we got another Mazda, Mazda CX nine, which is just the third row seater to the five. And it's super fun to drive brand new. 2022. So, for those of you shopping for cars, the used car market is absolutely insane right now. So if you have any questions on what I went through for a process, let me hit me up. I'll tell you everything you need to know. It's insane out there, but anyway, I we're your advocates for all sorts of things. Not just it related, right? It's how we roll

  Kyle: 2:55

  We're your guys for CROs and Mazdas. If you got any questions

  Pat: 2:59

  right. And food.

  Kyle: 3:00

  yeah.

  Pat: 3:01

  And food, that's it? Yeah, so let's so we're back this week for another episode, I thought this would be a good one, Kyle, you and I thought this would be a good one. We get a lot of comments for this or requests I should say for this episode or topic it's imposter syndrome and you know, we've all been through it. I've been through it. Kyle you've been through it. some of us are still going through it. right.

  Kyle: 3:23

  lived, it lived it for years and years.

  Pat: 3:25

  Never quite leaves. Now we get a lot of requests for the imposter syndrome. So we figured now would be a good time to to take this one on head on and try to do with some justice. So, I don't know, Kyle, do you have any O opening thoughts on the imposter syndrome conundrum that a lot of people seem to be having these days?

  Kyle: 3:40

  It's so tough. And then just, I mean, even realizing that you're in it, if you do or don't is tough in itself. But it comes at you so many different ways and so many different you know, kind of things that it manifests itself in, but just how you feel about. Your skill level and then which way it swings it's, you know, super extreme or maybe the other way where you're like, I'm not good at anything, so,

  Pat: 4:06

  Yep. Yeah. And I guess we should kind of back up and say, Hey, you know, what is imposter syndrome for those that don't know you know, really when it comes down to brass tax, right? Imposter syndrome is just, it's a feeling or an experience you know, believing that you're not as competent as others perceive you to be right. So people could think you're a, you know, you're a w at whatever it doesn't have to necessarily be in. In your field that's, you know, at least where I've seen it, that's the most prevalent people think of, you know, their professional careers they're you know, have this imposter syndrome, but it could be really anywhere, right. It could be in regular life. It could be, in hobbies or, you know, whatever. But most of the time where I've seen it is in the professional field, but it's just this this belief that you're not as competent or as good as, you know, others may think you are, you know, You know, you look at yourself as a fraud or you know, that sort of thing. So, that's kind of what it is as far as like, oh, like I don't really belong here cause X, Y, Z, right. That kind of thing. So it's this mental place that you're, you know, you don't belong at the big boys table, you know, that kind of thing. That's so. Definition of what they loosely classify that as, but, you know, I've seen it too. I've I've had a little bit of you know, experience with it where I had it was where it came out of being a, I don't know. It really hit me when I became like a ne like an actual network engineer for like the first. And I stood on my own two feet. Like I was solely responsible for a company's network infrastructure. And I was like, wow, this is like, if something goes down, people are gonna look at me and I'm not gonna know what the heck I'm talking about. Like, you know, it was that kind of thing. And that first experience was that when I worked for M three I was basically the solo network guy. Now, you know, my boss. Knew a little bit about it. And the other guy my colleague who was on the system side he was doing the VMware and the more system driven system, admin driven things. He knew a little bit about it too. So it wasn't like, I was completely like out there in the middle of the ocean without a paddle, but, you know, If there was a complex issue or whatever, you know, those two guys weren't, you know, wouldn't be able to jump in and be like, oh yeah, it's this. Like, I, it was solely on my shoulders and that's a little bit of a jarring space to, you know, head space to be in at that time. She was like, oh man, I don't really, you know, I don't really know, like, I've never been responsible for, you know, for this before. And at that time, it wasn't a very big environment, you know, data center in maybe 10 offices, but you know, they all. They all had ASAs. They all had, you know, switches and phones and you know, that sort of thing. So, it was a jarring thing like, oh man, if something breaks you know, people are gonna be looking at me and I'm like, oh, I don't know if I really belong here, but, you know, but I think that comes that that confidence or swag, I think that comes with. Right in your position and sort of learning the nuts and the bolts and the, you know, the you know, some of your ins and outs of your organizations and you know, where the bandaids are. And, you know, what's held together with silly putty and string, you know, that kind of thing versus, you know, what's actually put together the right way. So, but I, you know, I think getting out of the imposter syndrome just comes with a little bit of swag. It comes with a little bit of. Yeah, a little bit of confidence goes a long way. And then, you know, or like when you do come up against that very first, you know, oh no moment. And then you go through it and you fix it. You're like, man, that's really good. I actually belong here. You know? So it's some of that starts to wear off after time, you really start to get your feet met. So that, that was my first real kind of experience with the imposter stuff. Anything from you there, Kyle?

  Kyle: 7:45

  Yeah. You know, I guess it was part of the working my way up from. At the very bottom and stuff like that. Cuz at that point you're like, well, what do I really know? I haven't put anything in place. It was just all theory I learned in class or maybe stuff that I tinkered with. And as you kind of get promotions and work your way up into different stuff like that, you're like, do I actually know what I'm doing here? Or like, you know, and then you hear stuff from people that you're like, wow, you're doing great. And you're. Well, I don't know. I feel pretty unsure about what's going on here, so,

  Pat: 8:18

  Talking to me.

  Kyle: 8:18

  right, right. You're like, why are these guys lying to me? Making fun of me. So, you know, like

  Pat: 8:25

  Yep.

  Kyle: 8:26

  those mind games and they're just your own mind, which is, you know, even worse.

  Pat: 8:31

  Yep. Yeah, no, I think that's a good point. You know, with the whole, you know, yeah, you're doing great. You're like what? I just, I'm just doing my own thing going about my own day. There's nothing, you know, nothing kind of crazy, but I think you know, if you listen to the show, Kyle and I had big proponents of certifications, right? So at that time, when I, you know, when I had my own, you know, my, I was standing on my own two. From a network engineer perspective, you know, I had my CCNA, I had my CCMP. Right. So then you have all these, you know, if you run into a problem, people are gonna go, oh, well you have your CCMP, you should be able to fix this. And that was a weird mindset too. Like, yeah, I do have it, but like, but that goes back to like Knowing the actual material and not just blowing through it from a, can you pass the test, you know, perspective. Right. So when you get thrown into the fire, you're expected to perform because you had those letters behind your name, you know, that sort of thing. So, you know, I felt a little bit of pressure on that too. Like, oh yeah. Like they hired me cuz I'm a CCMP what, if they have a, you know, what, if they have an issue and I can't fix it in a timely manner or, you know, something's really burning and you know, that sort of thing. And I look like an idiot, you know, that happens a lot too. So, I would say, you know, I, you know, we're a big proponent of certifications, but know the knowledge just don't do it to pass the test. Right. I think that's just a general common sense thing, right? You put in the time to actually go for the test, you might as well learn the material and Be that guy that those letters say you are. Right. So, you know, just that kind of thing. So Kyle and I just have some notes on this imposter syndrome thing that we kind of threw together. And we want to kind of talk about, but I guess you know, for me, I've seen a couple different types of. People that are, that have imposter syndrome. And I think I may fit into some of these. Not like not completely, but, you know, you fit into different, a couple different buckets here. You know, you know, there's been, there's people out there that you know that I've seen and like I said, different types of different types of imposter syndrome, I guess. The first one that that I've seen is those people that try to be. You know, people that try to be perfect all the time, like in their professional careers. Right. So if they don't, you know, if they don't believe that it was perfect, then you know, oh, you always could have done better. Right. Those kind of people, oh, well, you know, oh, I could have done better. Or, oh, you know, my, the perfectionist in them really. Makes them feel like they're not as good as others. Right. Cause you're always, you're never quite satisfied about yourself. And I always say this too. It's like, you know, perfect is the enemy of good. Right? So it's like, look, you gotta just take a step back and remind yourself that, look, it doesn't have to be perfect right out the gate. Just start it, start, get, take that first step. And you just go from there. My, my wife has to tell me that all the time, like I have a little bit of that. Right? So like in my other hobbies and whatnot, like I feel like I have to have the best. From day one and the wife's like, what are you talking about? That's the point of the hobby? Like, you start out, you know, you start out small and you just get better and get better. And then, you know, a year from now or whatever, you're like, oh, wow, look how far I've come. You know, that kind of thing. So I have to be reminded of that, myself that, you know, perfect is the enemy of good and that, you know, we I've seen that in, in people that they just, you know, unless it was done absolutely perfect that they feel like somehow it could have you. Been done better. Right. So never mind that they fixed the issue. Like they didn't fix it to the level of, you know, whatever that they mocked up in their head. Right. So I've seen that you know, the other thing I've seen is, you know, people that it's. They don't know everything about this, like their particular subject or whatever, like their you know, topic, what you're gonna call it. Because they haven't mastered every nuance of their field or their, you know, subject matter expert. They feel like they, you know, they haven't really, they haven't really reached the rank of expert. So then that comes into a play of, oh, why am I in this position? If I. An expert, you know, that sort of thing. So, you know, we've seen that. And, you know, that's the other one, too. Again, you know, perfect is the enemy of good, like, you don't need to start right from the top. Like if you start at the top, there's really nowhere to go. Like you, you know what I mean? You just kind of hang there and you know, you a loiter, right? So you always, you're always gonna be learning something. Right. And we talk about it all the time. Like this field, you're constantly learning in this field. There is no standing still you're learning the next thing that's coming down the pipe. Cause it does. So fast. So don't expect to be an expert in everything. I, you know, it is way too broad to be an expert at absolutely everything. Yeah. There's Jack of all trades. Yeah. But there's a saying, right. The Jack of all trades master a none. Right. So it's, you sort of have to take the good with the bad, right? Yeah. You wanna, you know, do you wanna drill down into, you know, into your subjects, right? Your S. Whether that's networking, whether that's cyber, whether that's CIS admin, whether that's whatever, you know, drill down and be an SME in those particular fields, or do you wanna be a generalist and you know, never know what's, you know what problem is gonna shoot at you that day? A course, you know, over the course of the very many veins of it. Right? So, if you wanna do that, that's fine. But then there's, you know, there's literally no way you can be an expert at all of it. It's just too vast. It's just too big in this space to really be, you know, you can do it, but you're not as effective. People say, oh yeah, you can't be it's baloney. You can't be effective. You really can't. And learn all of that and be an expert and be good at it. Right. So, you know, I, and I feel like there's a constant and this is gonna vary by company that you're in or even even the business that you're, that your company serves. But I feel like, you know, some people fight to the death of, oh, well I need an, I need a Jack of all trains master a. And then some people, oh, well now we wanna specialize. And then, you know, if you have people that specialize in whatever they do that naturally introduces some, you know, concrete walls in between departments. Right. So that, you know, there's some trade offs there. Right. So, you know, for, from a network guy's perspective, like if I was working in a Jack of all trades shop or that, you know, that company needed me to know a little bit about everything. Like if I'm a network guy, that's my strong point. Then don't gimme an office 365 issue, cuz that's gonna take me two weeks to figure it out. When, if I could just punt it to Josh over here, or whoever next to me who is an office 365 expert. He's good in a couple hours. Right. So, you know, it's that sort of thing. You can't be an expert at everything. So just, it just doesn't work in today's world is just too big. And that, I don't know, I may get some flack for that, but that's just where I'm at the moment that's my story. And I'm sticking to it. And this sort of the next one sort of, kind of leans into the expert one, but some of these folks that I've come across, that they have this aura about them that they're not naturally. Like intelligent or smart or, you know, or even competent for that manner. You know, if, or if you don't get something right, the first time around takes you longer to master a skill, you feel like you're never gonna go get there. And I feel like that too sometimes like with the especially now, like with the way the network world's going with automation and whatnot, like I just, you know, with the Python stuff and the script. Python. And some of the other languages out there that are blanking me at the moment Ansible is another one. You know, I just feel like I just can never get my head around it. And I, you know, at the level that I'm, you know, the level of my career or the point in my career, I should say where I'm at now. Networking is, you know, cause I leaned on my experience for all these years. It's, you know, I've seen a lot of things. So my brain has a lot of answers in there because of the experience that I have. But now me trying to learn. Something new, right. That I've never been exposed to before ALA Python, Ansible, yang, um, things of those natures you know, that automation process, I just feel like such a dummy I'm like, why can't you get this through your thick skull? Like, I just it drives me crazy. So that is something I'm, you know, that I'm working on. And it's still, like I said, you know, been in this business since college that's going on 20 years, which is kind of weird to say, but. You know, you're always learning something new and there's always gonna be something that you're not gonna get, but, you know, it's just it's just more satisfying then when you do sort of conquer it and kind of, you know, that light bulb does go on. You're like, oh yeah, you know, that kind of thing. And most of the time when that light bulb goes on, you were making it harder than it had to be. I found that all the time. Like, you're just like, oh, you idiot. It didn't have to be this hard, you know, you know? So, so there's a little bit of that as far as that syndrome where people don't think, you know, that they're naturally smarter, intelligent that you know, they don't get something to write the first time. You know, that they're, you know, they have this that you're an idiot, you know, syndrome, right. right. So, you know, that sort of thing. So, and the other thing too I've come across people that that sort of work in work by themselves. I don't wanna say they're introverts, but but you can also sort of feel like an imposter if you've had to ask for help or if you reach, you know, to reach a certain level or status, or, you know, you can't get there on your own. So you sort of question. Your abilities and your confidence, right. Or should say competence you know, Hey, if I had to ask for help, like, oh, well, am I really that good? Because I had to ask for help and, you know, get a boost to get here. You know, that sort of thing. I've had people I've sort of noticed that in folks too, of different places that I've worked. That's an interesting one too, but you know, in today's day and age, you know, asking for help is everything right. People oh, ask for help and reach, you know, reach out to your neighbor and, you know, yada, this, that, and the third. So, yeah, but I've definitely seen that in the past where people feel less of themselves because they have to ask, you know, ask for help. So, yeah. And I have a little bit of this one, too. It's this sort of weird thing that like, you gotta be the hardest worker in the room sort of thing, or to reach your, you know, the highest levels or you know, of achievement possible. And if you don't, you're a, you know, you're a fraud, you didn't quite, you know, you're not, as, you're not as good as you say you are sort of thing. I've had a little bit of that. Not too crazy, but but you. It's the hustle, right? You have to, you know, for a while it was like, you know, on that hamster wheel, like we talked about it before, like, you know, just that certification hamster wheel, like you just go and you get the next one and you go and you get the next one and you go, and that wheel never stops you just, and you burn out. Right. So, you know, but so in that instance, if you have that mentality of, you know, not being the hardest worker in the room, Do you feel less of yourself? Right? I think I think that's a real that's a real syndrome, you know, what, you know, characteristic of that, or, you know, type of that, I should say of the imposter syndrome of, you know, if I'm not the hardest work in the room I'm falling behind, like, you know, second place is the first loser, you know, sort of thing. So, you know, So I've been there too. So those are just a couple, like, you know, types of imposter syndrome that Kyle and I have come across and you know, various points or you know, either we've gone through it or know somebody that have, has gone through it, you know, in, in their career. And just kind of frame that section of the show here to kind of lead that off. But Kyle, do you have any thoughts on any of those or any of your. Experiences there

  Kyle: 19:43

  I mean, I definitely have been some of those people you know, kind of deal like that. Like, you know, the soloist, the super person. I mean, I guess you could probably even combine some of those together, you know, like, I don't want to ask for help. I'm gonna go above and beyond, but, and then, you know, I'm burn or I miss something or, you know, just it's it's not it's not a great place to be.

  Pat: 20:05

  No, it's a tough it's a tough road for sure. You know, and I think I don't know. I dunno if you can call 'em characteristics of. You know of the imposter syndrome. Right. So, just a couple of the popular ones that, that I've, you know, that Kyle and I've faced. And I like, I don't Kyle, you wanna go first? And

  Kyle: 20:21

  no go to town.

  Pat: 20:22

  I feel like I'm, hoing the mic here, but I don't know. I just feel like, you know, again, you know, We won't live up to expectations, right. Or from a perspective of overachieving, right. Or some people, you know, sabotage their own success of thinking, well, I, you know, it wasn't that great or, well, you know, again, asking for, you know, or I should say attributing your success to external factors. Right. So, oh, well, you know, John helped me, you know, Along the way. And I only really did it cuz John helped me or, you know, you have, you know, that self doubt kind of, you know, creeps in and you know, that sort of thing or or even just like the goal setting, right. Say, okay. You know, sort of set these goals that are, you know, unrealistic or. You know, very challenging, you know, at the, you know, to say the least very challenging, and then you feel disappointed when you don't hit them. Right. And that sort of, you know, continues to push the cycle along if you will. Right. So, you know, that sort of thing. So, Yeah, it's just, you know, a couple of characteristics of what, you know, the imposter syndrome hamster wheel, you know, looks like. But it's a weird, it's a weird space. And I feel like for me, like, I. Most of the times it's when you start like either when you're solely on your own for the first time, you know, trying to hate, it's like, oh, look, I'm responsible for this, you know, for this piece of it or I'm the subject matter expert of this piece or whatever, or, you know, I feel like I go through some imposter syndrome. Like when I start a new job and I don't know the environment right away. And then, you know, God forbid something breaks on like the third day end and they're like, what do we here? What do we pay you for? You know, that kind of thing. so, you have a little bit of that. Every time you start a new job, you're not quite comfortable with the environment yet. You're like, oh, please don't, you know, nothing break. Cause I don't wanna look like an idiot. Yeah. That kind of thing. But now this are just a couple of the characteristics. Here's the other thing too. And I, there's a couple examples that that we thought of. And either Kyle and I have sort of been through here or know people that have that have been through. But like the first minute that comes to mind if you're working like in a certain role for a couple of months, and yet you. Say you were promoted what to whatever. And then people call you by your previous title. Right? I think that's a, yeah, I think that's a big one too. Cause then you're like, oh, well I'm not really worthy of, you know, people don't recognize you by that title or, you know, then you kind of feel fraudulent because you haven't, you know, ma mastered your position yet. I feel like that happens a lot when you start a new place and like, you know, People all, then people go like to the boss, cuz they've always gone to the boss and then it's like, you never quite get involved because people constantly go over your head right. To the boss. and it's like, all right, well, I'm here to help. I'm I can do that. I just need you to, you know, like. Involve me in, in, in what your problem is, you know, that kind of thing. So you can feel a little less valuable in that aspect of people just constantly going. But you know, we talk about this all the time. People are creatures of habits, right? When they, you know, when they need something, They go to somebody that can get it done. And then when they need something again, they're gonna go back to that same somebody, right. That's just the way it is. Breaking people's habits like that are very hard. Especially when new people are introduced into the fold or, you know, like in my instance where I'm at now, right? The, you know, my boss used to be like in my position and they basically bumped them to manager, but he knows this network inside and out. So like people still go to him. A lot of things that technic I could do, but you know, they don't involve me cuz a, they don't know who I am. Cause they, you know, they just started, you know, a couple months ago they haven't had a whole lot of interaction with me. So, and again, they're creatures of habits. Right. They need something, they could, they go to the people that can help them. Right. So that's just the way the world works. So, but that can introduce a little bit of the you know, of the imposter syndrome. Cause you don't feel like you. Are worthy of that role cuz nobody really sees you in that role. So, and we're just, you know, we're humans, right? We want acceptance. Right. That's what we, that's what we do. right. Or, you know, the other one is like, you know, we've been nominated for some sort of award, right? Whether that's, you know, I don't know each company is different, but I'll take my example. When I worked at evolve, like they had quarterly quarterly awards, right. They had quarterly meetings. And then at each of these meetings, they they picked somebody from each department and they called it, you know, they were rock stars. Right. So they basically, you know, they said, okay, look, you did, you know, by some sort of metric, right. You did better than. Colleagues for this particular quarter, whatever. And then they had one at the end of the year, right. So they had technically, I think they had five five meetings a year. It's not like you've been nominated for an award, but you feel like, you know, you feel like an imposter at the, you know, at the ceremony or at the meeting. Cuz you didn't feel like your achievements were good enough to warrant the nomination. Feel that too. Right. So I've been there personally. It's like, oh, well, you know, okay, I'll take it. no, one's gonna say, no, I don't want this award, but you know, you know, but that does you're like, oh, I'm just trying to try to do my job and, you know, push the needle forward. Right. So, not a big deal to kind of, you know, there again, downplaying your accomplishments is a form. You know, imposter syndrome in a way. So, I feel like that's a good example. So, this is just a couple of examples that we thought about as far as, you know, what they look like in the real world. So anything on that, Kyle,

  Kyle: 25:50

  I even struggle with you know, when I change jobs, whatnot, you know, like now I have an official title, you

  Pat: 25:59

  Yeah.

  Kyle: 26:00

  it's. like before I was just kind of getting thrown. You're a technician here. You're a technician there. Like, whatever you like now it's like, oh, senior network analyst. And I'm like, oh, what if I, you know, like the same thing And you know, but I've been in the role now for a couple months and it's like, okay, all right. You know, but it took a little, like somebody would say something and I'm like, is that. Is that, are you talking to me?

  Pat: 26:23

  You like looking over your shoulder? you're talking to me?

  Kyle: 26:27

  right. Yeah. But

  Pat: 26:29

  No, that's a big one. And I think titles play a big part in, you know, people's success. Right. I honestly, I think titles have like gotten outta hand in the last couple of years. Like people has just like, there's just titles everywhere for everything. I'm just like, really like this. Is what's going on, but like, you know, it's like chief people, officer you're like, what since, when is that a thing anyway? No I think titles play a large role in the success and. Some of the driving factor of imposter syndrome. Right. Cause you have to know how to embrace that. Right. So like for my example, like I've been a senior network engineer for the last couple titles that I've had or the last couple jobs that I've had. Three just come off the top of my head, but you know, now in this role, I'm technically on the architecture team. So I'm a senior network architect and. Wow. That sounds pretty, you know, it sounds pretty cool, but I'm like, can I really do that? Like, oh my God, you know, it's like, you know? So yeah, I, I definitely think titles can be good and bad depending on you know, where your head space is at. And then I think too, to kind of round this out a couple things that we talked about of like coping. You know, imposter syndrome or, you know, writing the ship or, you know, that sort of thing coming outta your own head space. Right. So, you know, and this is the world we live in today, right? The, you know, the first one we thought of is, you know, share your feelings, right. everybody's like, oh yeah. Talk to somebody. Or this is the wor you know, again, the world we live in you know, but it's like, and it's not good or bad. It's just where we are. Yeah, I would say, just talk to other people about, you know, how you're feeling, whether that's a boss, whether that's a coworker, whether that's significant other right, or, you know, family member or something say, Hey, you know, and I think really, you know, these beliefs are, you know, are rational thoughts and whatnot. They tend to Fe. When they are hidden and not talked about, like, if you just keep it inside, you're just like, oh, I'm gonna explode one of these days and you know, that sort of thing. So, I would, you know, or even like journal it, right? Write it down in a journal or whatever, just get it out on, you know, get it out on paper. Or, you know, like I said to a, you know, talk to somebody that actually gives you actual feedback and you know, you're not just writing in a. But yeah, definitely sharing your sharing, your thoughts and feelings is the first step to kind of getting it out on paper and then you read it back to yourself and you're like, ah, that, you know, yeah. I could, you know, it's the first, you know, step of, you know, recovery and it's, you know, getting to where you need to be. So, that was the first one. I would say also too, you can. I dunno how to sort of say this, but like focus on others, I guess, you know, it's, it seems counterintuitive, right? You're trying to like, you're in this dark space and it's like, oh yeah, I got my own problems. I'm not trying to take on yours. You know, that kind of thing. But like, you know, but you know, if other people in the same situation as you, right? You guys, or gals, might you. Work on it together. And, you know, again, throw ideas at the wall or, you know, throw 'em off each other and, you know, see what helps and you know, things of that nature. You know, I would, you know, and as you practice your skills, right, you'll build confidence in your own abilities of talking to that other person. That's going through the. Sort of, you know, sort of funk if you will. Yeah. And I know that sounds counterintuitive, but you know, if you see someone who's awkward or alone or, you know, kind of, you know, introvert, whatever, you know, I would, you know, definitely at least bring it up in conversation and see what that see if that sparks anything for sure. The other thing too, just kind of jotting down things here. If you have, I would say assess your abilities. Right? So have a look inward, I guess you wanna just call it that you know, if you have like this long, you know, history of, you know, Your feeling incompetence or in social or, you know, performance situations, right. I would say make a realistic assessment of your abilities, right? Write down accomplishments and you know, what you're good at then? You know what you know, your feelings that sort of encompass the, you know, those accomplishments and Hey I fixed a problem this week. It felt good because X or, you know, I did this because Y you know, that sort of thing. And I think you start to have a running tab of those things. It's, again, it sort of builds, builds confidence and really kind you know, your, you know, you're stepping forward, right. You're moving in the right direction. So, I would say, you know, again, write down your accomplishments and what you're good at, and then. Compare it to the self-assessment right of your abilities. That's probably that's a decent step into you know, into the light, if you will that sounds weird and morbid, but just couldn't I didn't know what else would call it. And sort of in that same breath, I would say take baby steps. Right. And again, this goes back to what we talked about earlier. Right? Perfect. Is the enemy of good, right. Don't focus on doing things perfectly or rather just do 'em reasonably, well, I should say. And, you know, reward yourself for taking the first step. Right. So, it's just, it's one of those things, right? Don't let the fear of perfect. Stop you from starting,

  Kyle: 31:25

  Yeah.

  Pat: 31:26

  right. You just gotta take that first step and be proud of yourself for taking that first step. And then, you know, put a couple steps together and, you know, before you know, it you're, you know, you're running down the street. and then the other thing too is like, all right, so as you start to assess your abilities and taking those baby steps, I would question if the thoughts you're having are like rational, like, does it make sense to believe that you know, for lack of better term, you're a fraud given that, you know, everything that you've accomplished within those first couple of steps, right. Say, okay, look, you know, I did this. Does that really make me a. you're like, all right, well, you have to be rational about it. It's like, you know, probably not. Right. You know, it's just one of those things like, okay, look, I've come this far. I'm definitely not a fraud. Cuz I've come this far. You know? Not that I'm at the end, right. I have a long way to go, but you know, it's good to look back on those things and say, okay, look, I've come this far. You gotta keep going. but you know, think of it in your head. Like, okay, look, you know what I've done so far? Is it rational? Is it helping me move towards that move towards the end goal here. So I think that's a valid point too. And I don't know why it came, took me this long to get to this one. Right. But like for heaven's sake, people stop comparing yourselves to other people. Oh my God drives you nuts. Again, this should have been like number one, but you know, every time you compare yourself, to someone you find some sort of fault in your rationale or your thinking that just fuels more feeling of not being good enough. Like it's just this it's this never ending. Like times suck. I don't know. like, you know, it's just like, you just can't like everyone's road is different. You just have to embrace it, take it for what it is, you know, if you look at somebody and say, okay, yeah, that guy's really good. You know, most times it should motivate you to get to that person's level. Right. And not be like, oh, That guy's really good. And I kind of suck cuz I'm not there, you know, that sort of thing, like it should motivate you to get to that level. And you know, we had Alex on a few weeks ago, he was kind of my motivation of, yeah, I want, I wanna get to what he's doing. I want get to, you know, what he's working with and what he is, you know, who he's working for or, you know, the knowledge of Hay's got. And honestly that guy's brain works in ways that mine will never, but. And I know that I'm okay with that. But yeah, he was the guy that I wanted to be for a long time. And he motivated me quite a bit through. Through my certifications, my CCNA and my CCMP, you know, things of that nature. You know, and I had inklings of a CCI and I studied for like eight months and then, you know, things got busy, I changed jobs and and then, you know, then the kids came along. So, I don't have time for any of that anymore, but maybe one day. But no, I would say stop comparing yourself to, to, to people. Cause you just, you're just gonna go down to that rabbit. Of, oh my God, you I'll never be as good as that person or I'll never be as that, you know? And it's just like, everyone's journey is different. You all get there in your own time. And I think Alex said this best, everything, you know, his, everything happens for a reason in your career, as far as who you work for, what kind of knowledge you get? Like there's a purpose to all of it. You know, some people have more stops along the way, but we all get to the. Destination at some point, right? It's just, everyone's different. Everybody moves at a different pace. Everyone's people, some people have more stops than others. It just is what it is. And I feel like social media has a lot to do with that too. And I think I said this I talked, I think it was with Lexi, I think a few months back when she was on the show, like you never. See the negative on social media, you always see the positive and it's like, oh my God, that person's life is perfect. Blah, blah, blah. Because yeah, of course it's gonna be perfect. The only thing you ever see is the positive things. You never see the negatives, right? Like. You know, you never know that, you know, I failed it. I failed the CCNA three times and I took, when I took the CCMP, there were three tests I failed. I failed the the route and the switch once. And then I passed the troubleshoot on the first time. So like you never see the negatives, you always see the, oh, I got my CCMP well, of course you're gonna look like a rock star. That's just, you know, people don't see the freaking ice underneath the iceberg, you know, of the surface. Right. So, you know, it's yeah, I think social media has really kind of put that comparison aspect into warp speed. That sort of thing. So, yeah, I would try to just stop comparing yourself. It doesn't do anybody, especially you any good. It just kind of gets you down to rabbit hole even further. So, again, that should have been number one. I don't know why we did that this long in this list to, to

  Kyle: 36:15

  I think there's a saying for that too. Pat comparison is the thief of joy.

  Pat: 36:20

  oh, look at you.

  Kyle: 36:22

  it's Kyle's Quip of the week.

  Pat: 36:24

  That's right. Write it down. And maybe a new segment of the show. You don't know. nah, that's a good point. I just think the comparison thing is just way outta hand nowadays. Cuz everybody sees the positive and there's never any negative. So, I, you know, I always, I've always embraced the negative and it's easy for me to say that now cause hindsight's 2020. Right. So when you're in the, when you're in the suck, you don't necessarily think of that rationale now you know, at the time, but. You gotta embrace the negative, cuz then it makes the positives even a little sweeter cuz you know what you went through to get to the positive right. Or to reach that goal. So, and the other thing too you know, I would say stop fighting feelings, right? It's more of, you know, don't fight those feelings of not belonging. I would say try to, I would try. I would try to embrace them really like lean into 'em accept them and, you know, acknowledge, you can only really move forward if you acknowledge those feelings. If not, you can start to sort of unravel and sort of get back into your, you know, back into your head space where you're not helping yourself. But I would say, you know, you, you have to acknowledge those feelings to start to move forward in those, you know, core beliefs that are, you know, that are holding you back. Right. So I, you know, the feelings are a big one and I know the Headspace game is. Is super prevalent in today's world that we live in. Everybody's got their own head games that they're getting through. But I would just, you know, I would just say, try to stop, you know, fighting those feelings and you know, embrace 'em lean into 'em accept them own 'em and say, look, you know, you have to acknowledge that to move forward. Right. You can't fight those demons. If you don't know, you don't have 'em right. Or without acknowledging you have. That's a big one too. I think the last one here, I would say you have to sort of refuse to let the. Imposter syndrome hold you back. Right? No matter how do you feel if you're a fraud or you don't belong, whatever, you know, you can't let that stop you from pursuing goals, right? You always have some sort of goals, you know, it's a mental head space you gotta break through. And I know that sounds easier, said than done as I sit here and we talk about this on the podcast, I get it. But you know, You just can't, you can't let it hold you back. Cuz if you let it hold you back, you'll sit there for forever, for as long and you just kind spin your wheels. And it's like, oh my God, this is you. That leads to burnout. And you know, all, you know, sorts of other things, but you just gotta push through it, push through those gates and Again, can't let it hold you back and always be striving towards, you know, towards a goal. I would I would think the goals keep the eye in the, you know, the eye and the prize mentality alive. I think if you have those goals and you sort of move, move towards them, then that's, you know, you tend to not hang around and wallow. And this suck longer. I don't know. It's just, that's just what I feel like. But do you have anything on that, Kyle?

  Kyle: 39:24

  no I definitely think that's a good, you know, you gotta take the first step, which is always the hardest one, right.

  Pat: 39:32

  That's it.

  Kyle: 39:32

  Just to get going. And then once you have that momentum it gets a little easier and realize that like, I am doing it. I can do it. It's you know, but that getting that mental space right. Is, can be tough.

  Pat: 39:46

  Yep. No, that's it. I totally agree on that. So yeah, so those are just a couple things on the imposter syndrome. Like I said, we've gotten quite a few. Request for this particular topic. So we we wrote some ideas down, jotted, some things down. Hopefully we did some justice and you know, this wasn't a self-help episode. so I hope not anyway. But no, I think we're just right. Just short of that hour. So I think we're gonna stop it there and get outta your hair and appreciate everybody joining this week. Kyle, any parting thoughts before we get outta here?

  Kyle: 40:17

  No. I mean, like, you know, if anybody's feeling that way you know, obviously pat and I have been through it already, you know, maybe still, maybe breaking through the other side, whatever, you know, if you have any questions or something, you know, send us a message, ask some questions we're here, you know, we're on Twitter, we're on all the other social medias.

  Pat: 40:37

  So, all right. Yeah, we're gonna get outta here. Appreciate everybody hanging with us today. On this episode you on lookout, we have some really cool things coming up, some cool guests that we're just trying to get schedules worked out for, but there are some cool guests coming up. I do wanna say that the show has been The show last year was nominated for Cisco champion award we did not win or place or anything, but just to be nominated was was awesome. So we thank everybody that that made their voices heard that liked this show. So, and then also we'd been accepted into the Cisco champion program. So that gives us some real cool insight to other content creators and. Access to things you know, like exclusive chats and communities and things of that nature that that I think that the show is gonna benefit from. So, just stay tuned for more info on that next next couple of weeks as we. Mow through this, but if you have a, if you have a topic that you want to hear us cover let us know email us like Kyle said, we're all over social media, Twitters and all of our social links are in the show notes of the episode here. There's a contact form on our website, too. So you can use that as well. That's the easiest barrier that's fine. Or, you know, email, Twitter or Facebook LinkedIn we're all over. Just, you know, let us know if you want to hear so. Whether it's technical or non-technical it doesn't matter. We'll tackle it all. So, um,

  Kyle: 41:53

  car car buying would get you a pair of CROs, know, like whatever

  Pat: 41:57

  That's right. Food. I

  Kyle: 41:59

  Yeah.

  Pat: 42:01

  it's all good. But yeah. All right, let's get outta here. So, thanks for joining this week, obviously for the for the show this week again, Website is out there breaking down the bites.io. You can subscribe to the show on your platform or choice there's links there. ITunes Google podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or plane RSS feed too. That's cool. It's all right there. Throw us a radio on iTunes. I know a lot of you folks are listening via iTunes cause our statistics tell us that. So you're already in it. Throw us a rating. That would be awesome that fools with the algorithm and gets us up the ladder up the chains. That would be awesome. Get more eyeballs on us. So that would be great. Or simply, you know, tell a friend that would be awesome too, where mouth is just as good these days. So again Twitter We're on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook facebook.com/breaking outta bites. The discord invite is in the show notes for us. We have a survey out there as well. That's on our website. LinkedIn, linkedin.com/breaking down the bites. You can email us at breakingbytespod@gmail.com. That's another way to get a hold of us. So we are we're everywhere. So if you need something from us or if you give some, any kind of feedback, we're always looking for feedback, let us know. And that's gonna be it. All right, man. This is another good episode and we'll see everybody next week.

  Kyle: 43:17

  So long.