Episode 35: Getting That Big Promotion

In this episode, we talk about ways to get that big promotion. We break down a few much-needed skills to get to that next rung of the ladder, also discussing the differences between team leader and manager positions. If you're looking to take your career to the next level, this is the episode for you!

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  Pat: 0:30

  Hey everybody. Welcome back to this. Week's edition of breaking down the bites as usual. I'm your host, pat driving this bus. You can find me on Twitter at layer eight packet. You can find Kyle who is with me as usual. He is on Twitter as well at Dan 2 56. You can find the show on Twitter at breaking bites, pod. We're pretty active on Twitter. So come say hello are always looking for someone to chat with. It's Twitter's always a good space for us to get a little closer to everybody and come say hello. So enough of that, Kyle, what's up, man. How you doing?

  Kyle: 1:05

  Hey, what's going on? Just doing it again, you know, another week, whether it's at least nice. So can't complain too much about that.

  Pat: 1:15

  Today was real nice. I am using a different pair of headphones tonight, so I don't know how this sounds or what, how it's gonna go. So pray that the editing gods are good to me with this episode. So we'll see. We'll see what happens. But Mike is the same. I couldn't find my head, my trustee headphones. So going with the the headphones I use for the job, for the J B. So we'll see what happens with

  Kyle: 1:36

  can you hear me now?

  Pat: 1:37

  Yeah. That's pretty much how it's gonna work. So no, it's all good. We were off last week. I was on vacation soaking up the sun in OSHA city, Maryland with the fam so that we had a good time and it was good. We are back on the saddle this week, ready to rock and roll. Talk about some good stuff. So, just Kyle and I this week, no guests. We've really had some good feedback on the guests that we've had and we wanna thank everybody. All of our guests that we've had recently and, you know, forever, it's been on the show. They've really been good and brought some real value to this show. And our numbers have really shown. So I appreciate everybody that listens and everybody that's been a guest O on this show, you guys everybody's really cool. So, this week we are gonna talk I think we both have a little bit experience in, in some of this, but this week we are gonna talk about two things. Actually, it's a twofold episode. They're kind of gonna lump in together, cuz they are similar, I guess. How to get that big promot. Right. I think that's a big one. For a lot of people that don't really know how to kind of do it, they just kind of, I don't want, this is gonna sound negative, but they're sort of like a slave to a ticket queue sort of thing. And they just kind of ratchet through tickets and, you know, dealing with, you know, the day to day grind. And then they just kind of either burn out or, you know, become, you know, part of the furniture. Right. One of those things. So, we're gonna talk about how to get noticed how to get that big promotion if you're eyeing that big promotion, if not, that's cool too. You like to ticket cue and you like your, you know, quote unquote nine to five and coming in doing, you know, working from a list and going home. That's totally cool. I was like that at one point. But if those, for those of you that are looking for a little more responsibility and all the things that come with being promoted, we're gonna talk about that a little bit tonight and then sort of tying into that as well. We're gonna talk about the differences between a team lead versus a manager because from a from a technical perspective, right, you're a network guy, you're a system guy, you're a, whatever your ideal career path, your next rung would technically either be a lead or a manager depending on your company structure. Right? So, I think that those two topics go well together. So, we're gonna, we're gonna try to do some justice and make some sense out of out of those two topics. So with.

  Kyle: 3:46

  I've been there kind of deal like that, you know, started as a low guy intern work study kind of deal like that. And you know, I didn't make it to management or team lead can be like that. I just kind of worked my way into different positions, but definitely, you know, show your worth, go above and beyond make everybody's life easier. People really appreciate that.

  Pat: 4:08

  Yep. Yep. That's a big one. That's actually number one on the list. Nice segue. My man, I like it. No kind of the first thing. Just kind of spitball in here, but the kind of first thing that shows that you're sort of promotion ready or you're looking to take that next rung is, you know, whose job you're making easier, you're making the boss's job easier. Right. That's number one. Right. People love to, you know, be freed up to do other things. Right. So if they're freed up to look better to their uppers you're, you know, you're taking on that to look better to yours, you know, that kind of thing. So that's a big one. You know, and I feel like you, you should know what your boss's job entails to a degree. Right. And you should know, like, what's your supervisor or your boss, like worries about the most as far as like, is it, you know, is it uptime? Is it, you know, dealing with the people side of managing, you know, is it, his or her boss, or is it, you know, something else? Yeah. That sort of thing. So if you could, you know, Within reason, right? If you could take some of those concerns, whatever they are off their plate and help them, and they can see you as dependable or you know, like a rock steady, you know, get things done, capable person, then that reinforces that, you know, you're a team player, you know, you're seeing the bigger picture, right? You're not just, okay, how does this get me up the next rung of the ladder you're seeing the larger pie there. Right. And then you're trying to step up and sort of cover those responsibilities either while they're outta the office or, you know, they're dedicated to a big project that shows that you can step in and sort of take the reins, you know, if you will. So that was the first one for me making your boss's job easier. It was always a good one to kind of get the ball rolling. I would say.

  Kyle: 5:56

  Yeah. And it's a lot of that too is, you know, people just by nature kind of vent a little bit or make comments and stuff like that, listen to what they have to say. Is there something that they particularly hate that you may be good at or could kind help out with, you know, and you know, it usually goes with good listening and communication skills.

  Pat: 6:16

  Look at that segue. Number two, my man it's like, you've done this before. Yeah. Work on your communication skills. Like it's the world we live in, right? It communication is such a profound skill in today's leadership roles. No matter what sort of leadership you're in, or if you're not in a leadership role, communication skills go a long way. But yeah, especially when you're trying to get noticed and trying to get to that next rung of the ladder, you have to work on your communication skills. Cause no one is gonna, no, one's gonna hand you the job, right? No, one's gonna say, Hey pat, do you want this job? I have an opening. Like you have to go and get it. You have to go and be noticeable. You have to sort of, you know, shine your shoes and show up in a tie. Right. You know, that sort of thing. So it's kinda show your everyday work. No, one's giving a promotion to, you know, and I think we talked about this with John a couple weeks back of, no, one's gonna give a promotion to guy in the basement that sits there with the lights off and, you know, just does his job nine to five sort of thing? Like it just doesn't happen maybe years ago. It did today. It just doesn't, it's just not the world we live in. You know, and I feel like the more. People you're responsible for the more important your communication skills will be, right? So you have all walks of life, you know, when you're a manager or, you know, when you're trying to get to that next level, you have all walks of life on your team, right? You have some introverts, you have some extroverts, you have some, you know, some people that, you know, think they're more important than they are. You know, you have all these different, you know, you have all these different personalities you gotta deal with. Not just cuz you know, I mean managers gotta deal with 'em all the time cuz they report to them. But like you, as a part of the team, you have to balance that as well. Knowing how to communicate with those people are is I can't tell you how important that is. It is just learning how to communicate. Just goes, it just goes so far. Right. And so it would make sense that learning how to communicate goes hand in hand when trying to. Get promoted, right. Investing in those relationships will now smooth that transition. If you know, if and when you become those people's bosses. Right? So, you know, no one likes to, no one likes a hard ass. So somebody that's really hard to work with day to day and only does what he's told and never jumps in to, you know, put out the fires and then, you know, one day they all come in and go, oh, there's a meeting. Oh, well Pat's not your new boss. People go, oh shit. like, no one wants to hear that. Like people go, oh man. And that's when the revolving door starts. Right. That's when people start rusting papers and you know, Hey, I gotta take a long lunch. I gotta go get an oil change, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, you know, that sort of thing. So like it happens. I've seen it happen. It just, you gotta be able to, you gotta be able to communicate with people, both at a team level, and then you. At a level that, you know, if you were to become their boss one day, it's not such a kick, you know, to those people that if you weren't promoted, cuz that's not a good look for anybody.

  Kyle: 9:21

  Yeah, definitely. And so you gotta keep that level of like professionalism and stuff too. When you get promoted, if you get promoted, you know, and communication is definitely key. I know that's something that I struggled with for quite a while. Cause it's like we were skeleton crew short staffed and it like, you gotta hundred projects thrown at you and you don't have time to talk to people. You're just like, oh, one thing next, next. And nobody on the team knew what anybody else was doing, you know? And it just turned into chaos pretty quickly.

  Pat: 9:53

  Yep. Yeah. I struggled with it too. I struggled with it as I sort of came up and I struggled with the mentality of maybe this is this is totally naive of me. So I, you know, take this for while it's worth, but I thought everyone had the same lens of work ethic and what should be done as I did. So then when somebody didn't, when somebody just wanted to, like, I was always like, I was a shaker and a mover from like, I mean, you know, and I went to college together. Right. You know, it, it started then right. Saying, okay, like he, you know, this guy's going places, you know, it was one of those things. So like, you know who they are in the room they're not quiet about it. You can pick them out of the crowd like that. Right. So, you know, and I was always a shaker and a mover. And then I thought, and then I looked at other people and I'm like, Man this guy's got no, like Gusto, this guy's got no, like, and I'm like, why don't you have this? Like, I, like, I struggled. I struggled with that. I'm like, oh my God, like, why is this guy not wanna move up? Like, why is this guy just being, why is this guy okay with just being a knock or, and that's not to put the knock down there that's a very useful skill nowadays and a very useful position in the world we live in. But like, like I always thought that people had the same frame of mind that I did. And then it was a rude awakening when I found out they didn't and I had to learn to sort of communicate through that and be like okay. Like I gotta work with this guy or gal, you know, how do I get him to, or her to do what I need to move on to my next task? Or, you know what I mean? So that sort of thing. So again, communication is just, it's just so crazy important. I can't, yeah, we can't stress that enough on how important that is.

  Kyle: 11:40

  Deaf life.

  Pat: 11:41

  You know, and the other thing too, I just jotted notes down here. And feedback is, in my opinion, feedback is underrated in today's world. Like a lot of and I'll say this and I probably will get a little heat for it or whatever, but I, a lot of managers don't know how to give feedback. Like they just don't, it's not like they'll give feedback, but it's not like it's not constructive feedback. You're just kind of like throwing things at a dart board and being like, that's the most generic feedback ever. Like, just, I don't know how to explain it. And you know, and that's the other thing too, like, like the last couple places I've been, they've done KPIs. So basically KPIs for those that don't know, I forget what the actual acronym stands for, but it's basically goals that you're setting for yourself and for your team throughout the year. And then at the end of the year, you know, that's used as a benchmark at the end of the year. They all, you know, you meet with your boss and go, well, you did this, you know, you met this KPI, but you didn't meet this one. You met this one or you didn't meet this one. Like, I understand the structure of it and I get why it's needed, but in today's it world things move so fast and the business needs change. By the time you make it in January to try to carry you through all your objectives and KPIs in December, half of those, maybe even three quarters of those on the list aren't relevant anymore. It is just not. So I always like to ask for feedback throughout the year whether that's quarterly, whether that's, you know, monthly. You know, and I've asked at multiple places the boss I have now, him and I meet monthly and you know, we're just kind of talking, it's not a very deep conversation, but I'm talking to my boss all day long. So, I mean, what else can you say one more meeting a month? You know what I mean? What else can you say? But you know, I've always liked the bosses and the places that give you feedback immediately, or semi immediately something in a timely manner, right? Because if you're not pulling your weight, it's useless to wait three months till you get that review to bring it up. Cuz by then you're already sour. You know, people have already soured on you. Like, like give it to me now. So I know it's a problem. And then I can work on it going forward. Now if you give it to me in January and then it's still, and I know about it. And then in March, it's still not fixed that's on me. But if I don't know about it in January, then you wait till March to tell me that's stupid. Like that doesn't make any sense. So. Yeah, feedback is a big one. Ask how you can improve is, you know, is sort of lumped into that same thought, right? Ha ask how you can do better, right. Taking time to develop new skills or you know, even like, I would say, try to like practice getting feedback, you know, like a boss, right. To say, Hey, you know, Hey, you know, pretend you report to me and you know, I'm gonna do this. And what do you think of, you know, what do you think about that? And let them work through an exercise with you or, you know, whatever. So like take two or three trusted colleagues or friends and say, Hey, let's role play a scenario here for a second. And you know, it's gonna help me in the long run sort of thing. And so on the other side of that, I think if you could receive constructive criticism without getting defensive, I think that's a big step for the next level, cuz I've. Really done poorly with that, to be honest I get constructive criticism. I'm better at it now, but like earlier on in my career, I used to get constructive criticism and I used to get angry. Right, right then and there on the spot. And it's just like, Ugh, you know, that kind of thing. So I've gotten better at it. It is something I'm, you're always working on it. Right. It's just the mentality of the personality I have. It's just what it is. But yeah, if you can get, if you can get constructive criticism without getting defensive or, you know, sort of, you know, taking your arms and wiping the table in front of you in front of, you know, in front of the boss I think that that goes a long way and showing that you're ready for the, yeah. The next level sort of thing.

  Kyle: 15:39

  oh, pat, here you go. Vocab KPI is a key performance indicator.

  Pat: 15:44

  there you go. That's it. There you go look at that. I knew that's why you were joining this show. That's awesome. Just fill in the holes. I love it.

  Kyle: 15:52

  yeah, I would definitely go along with that too. You know, we would have like these goals that we would set. At the beginning of the year, and then you would come back and revisit, like, did you meet your goals and stuff like that? Or even some of the reviews that I would get, you know, it would be like meet or exceeds expectations with no feedback. And you're like, what the hell is that? You know,

  Pat: 16:12

  right. Was that even mean

  Kyle: 16:13

  yeah. Like, do you actually mean that? Or is that just like you click the thing on the little survey? Yeah. Right. And you're like, I, you don't gain or get anything from that. So yeah. Definitely ask what, you know, what could I do better? What am I doing? Great. What am I doing poorly? Where can I improve? Definitely.

  Pat: 16:33

  Yeah, no, I agree. I think that's a big one asking for how you can improve really shows that you're you're again. You see the big picture, you're aware of some things that you may, you know, may need to work on and just, you're trying to get other people's feedback from outside your bubble. Right. That's that's the gist of that. Right. But I've been on both sides of that, you know, especially with the KPI thing, I go, oh, well, we didn't hit this. I'm like, well, you didn't gimme money for it. So that's a separate conversation, but like, you know, oh, we didn't get this done this year. Well, I've been asking for money for how long, and you just never took it over the finish line. So is that really on me? Or, you know, how does that work? So, but no that could be a whole nother episode of, you know, that sort of feedback, but we only have an hour. No kidding. So the other thing, this sort of goes in with the communication skills as well. It just, you know, and it's again, it's, I think it's a sign of the times that we live in at the moment. Moving forward is just, you know, being nice to people, developing. Strong relationships. Right? So you know that's both within your organization and with vendors, right? I've had co colleagues and coworkers leave said places and go work for a vendor cuz they had that stronger relationship with them and something opened up and you know, they said audio. So, you know, but definitely within your own organization as well. You know, and I think this goes pretty, it's a pretty standard thing across the board, but the decision to promote someone also requires like input of others. So whether that's, you know, whether that's other. Managers at your boss' level or you know, maybe another team member that isn't really looking for a promotion that boss is gonna go to and say, Hey, how's, you know, how's pat or how's Kyle been doing, we're thinking, you know, not necessarily giving away the secret, but just trying to get, you know, in that form of feedback of, you know, from other colleagues sort of things. I think that goes, you know, a long way for, you know, building those relationships, things of that nature.

  Kyle: 18:27

  It's a real small community with people, movers and shakers and how, you know, like you said, people jump to vendors and stuff like that. Like don't burn bridges, don't be a jerk. Cuz you never know when you're gonna run into that person or in, in what capacity that they may be able to affect or not affect your job.\ Life work, whatever, you know, don't be a jerk

  Pat: 18:50

  yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I think that comes back to also then, you know, being, making those connections on LinkedIn. Right. And we've talked on this show before how important LinkedIn account is about whether, you know, whether, how frequently you use it or not. That's a different story, but but yeah, like say, Hey, say a director or a CIO or a CTO leaves the company and he's going, you know, now you see, oh, he's a CIO at somewhere else or whatever. And you're like, oh, lemme take far, what else did they have there? Now you have a, now you have a hook there. Right? You have an input. Right. You have, you know, I mean, being a CIO, you have one of the top people in the in the company. And, you know, again, if you have a strong relationship with that person is gonna vouch for you. Right. So that importance of that relationship is super, super important. So yeah, so, you know, and that just comes down to being nice and, you know, making those relationships You know, treating those with respect and you know, things of the nature and developing those strong bonds with people now, you know, do you have to go for beers you know, every night or, you know, once a week? No, you don't have to, but you know, you can, you know, within those walls it's better to be friends with most people than not. Right. That's, I think that's a general consensus, but I mean, beers will be nice. Right. We all like beer. Why not? But it's just not realistic.

  Kyle: 20:01

  Definitely with what you were saying about LinkedIn. I mean, just in this the short time, you know, kind of deal that we've been doing this and whatnot, the amount of people that have added me on like LinkedIn and Twitter and stuff like that. And, you know, I'm looking through and I'm like, man, these, some of these people have like really impressive skill sets or or things that they've done. And I'm like, awesome. You know, like, yeah, the more the merrier, just like

  Pat: 20:23

  Heck yeah,

  Kyle: 20:24

  add me up.

  Pat: 20:25

  Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Why not? Yeah. Got you put a name in the face and try to be a little more active and you know, who knows what happens a year, two years, five years from now, who knows? So that's always something to keep in your back pocket. And the other thing too another kind of thing I jotted down here, the list, Kyle and I sort of came up with before we started. You're, you have to recognize others. I think your promotion just isn't about you, you know, again, if you're on a team and you don't get along well with said team for whatever reason, and then they, you know, you get the bump, that's not gonna put the best, you know, you know, there's no kumbaya there. Right? so now, like right off the bat, outside of all the other things that now you're gonna do. And the responsibilities you're gonna have to take on as being a boss or a team leader or whatever. And that's enough to chew on right now. You have to repair those. I don't say repair, but you gotta make those relationships better. Right? You can't be, you can't be doing the day to day stuff with people that don't either respect you or don't think you deserve to be there. Right. I think that's what it comes down to. Right. So, make it easier on yourself by, you know, trying to get along with everyone on your team, recognizing others. It's not just about you, you know, and you know, to be honest, I think the world is, you know, outside on social media, right? The world is about everyone. right. Not in the business world. I think, you know, it's very team oriented and moving in that way, but. You know, I generally, I think companies promote those that can motivate and manage right. Successful teams. Right. So if you're already in a good spot with a, you know, with a team lead or whatever, and PE you know, your teammates like you, because you are willing to jump in, in a fire, or you're picking that phone up at nine o'clock when, you know, there's an issue or, you know, Hey, you know, cover for this or whatever that, that goes a long way in when it's time to, you know, get you your due. So to speak, quote, unquote, people are gonna go to bat for that. Right. So they would rather, you know, they'll run behind you sort of thing. Right. So, you know, but yeah, I just never think whether you're trying to get promoted or not. I just don't think it's good to, you know, sing your own praises, you know, that sort of thing. But I think recognizing others goes a long way, it makes you look good and, you know, you know, and then the coworker, you know, someday or whatever, you know, It's gonna return a favor. Right. I think that's, you know, that's just people's nature. Right. I know I do, you know, that sort of thing. So, you know, the team I work with now is great and, you know, we get along quite well. So I think that's a good balance there, but yeah, I think recognizing others, when you get that promotion is definitely goes a long way. I think, the other thing to sort of just kind of jumping all over the place here, but you know, I, things don't this goes back to what they said a couple minutes ago. Things don't happen to people that don't ask. Right? So you have to communicate with your boss in that aspect. Look, you're looking for a promotion, tell them, right. I struggle with this one, cuz I automatically think my work is gonna speak for itself. And at many of the places I've. It just never happened. It, like, I just sort of, I don't wanna say sat there, but I did my best. I did my best and then got frustrated when it wasn't, you know, when it wasn't recognized or when it wasn't, you know, whatever, I, you know, I'm not that sort of person. I don't like to toot my own horn. So I'm never gonna go into the Boston meeting. Like, you know, I want this and I want it now, like put my, you know, fist on the table sort of thing. And like, or like write a number, be like, I wanna raise and like write a number on a piece of paper and slide it across the table. That that's just not me. That's not gonna happen. You know, I still think of that. Maybe it there's a old school to be, to think like, oh yeah. Like someone, you know, the boss is gonna notice. I don't know. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. I don't know. Do you have a thought on that? Like have you been in that spot before? Just, it's just not that common place

  Kyle: 24:23

  No. I definitely thought, like, I'm just gonna kick ass. I'm gonna show everybody I'm such a superstar. You know? Cause like nobody likes the guy who was like kind of throwing it out there and flaunting it and stuff either. You know? So I was just like, you know, if I do a good job and I really just show that I'm good and competent and blah, blah, and then it was just kinda like, it actually kind of ended up backfire and they're like, oh, Kyle's so good. We'll just give more crap to do. And then I'm like, no, I want more money to go along with the

  Pat: 24:52

  You wanna bump up?

  Kyle: 24:53

  right. Right. I

  Pat: 24:55

  I hear you.

  Kyle: 24:55

  yeah.

  Pat: 24:56

  hear you. I did the same thing. Yeah, I, no. So I, like I said, you don't go in there and pound your fist on the table and be like, yo, I want this and I want it now. You know, or the conversation doesn't have to start that way. Right. Instead, you're sort of, you know, you're asking your boss, okay, what's it gonna take to get there? Right. So then that puts your boss in a better position to be a guide or a mentor, whatever you wanna call it. And again, we've talked about mentors on this show and how important they are. This is just another example. And then. That sort of equally invests them in your, you know, career success as well. You know, that sort of thing. So, you know, don't go in there and throw your fist on the table, but Hey, ask, say, Hey, you know what? I think I'm ready for that next one. What do you think? You know, again, feedback number one, number two. When do you think, you know, what do you think I gotta work on? And number two, you know, when that time is right, 90% of what people do or what people get promoted with is a timing thing, right? Like no nothing ever happens cuz the, you know, cause you want it to happen that second. Right? It, there's usually a timing aspect to all of this. Right. So, but at least it puts it on the boss's radar to say, Hey, next time we're looking or we need a, we need another guy or, you know, a person, whatever, you know, then, okay, look, you know, Bumpy to lead or, you know, or if there's a, if there's an opening that I, you know, it's a backfill position, right? So the, your manager's moving on to another rung of the ladder, then, you know, you're gonna backfill, you know, their position, that sort of thing. So I think that's a lot of that too, but at least throw it out there, get on the plate and at least let them be known of it. Right. Cause if they don't know, you're, it's never gonna, it's never gonna come to fruition personally. I think that's from my experience. So that's how it generally happens. The other thing too you know, I would say, I think Kyle would agree with this. I would say like pay attention to others that have been promoted. So like in, in our structure, right in the it structure, you sort of have, you know, you have the network side, you have the system side, you have the security side, you have the dev side, you have the, whatever, you know, Watch what happens in those silos. Right. And see, okay, what's what's happening over there. Who's getting a bump. Who's, you know, you know, taking a weapon or who's getting talked about in meetings unfairly, you know, that sort of thing, you know, you have to sort of watch that as well. Like has someone else been promoted recently? If they have heck take 'em to lunch, ask 'em how they did it. Right. That's, you're getting it right from the source. Right. You can't get any fresher than that. You know, I would say, Hey, you know, and ask, I would say, Hey, did they get responsibilities, additional responsibilities over time? Did they have to earn a new cert to get noticed or some sort of schooling did they step into a newly created position? Like we just, you know, like we just talked about 30 seconds ago you know, see if you can learn from their sort of path and apply it. To your own path and that I think that's, you know, I think that's a good one too. And then sort of round that out by asking if they have any feedback or advice for you, you know, that sort of thing. Cause feedback can, you know, feedback can come from anywhere, not just necessarily your boss or whatever. So, you know, and other teams know what, you know, loosely other teams know what other teams are doing, right. So it's not completely siloed or, you know, cement walls around, around different teams. They normally infrastructure teams normally roll up to the same person as far as yeah. You have your local managers, but then that man, you know, all those managers roll up to someone's sort of director or, you know what I mean? So, you know, that, that would be my advice then too, like sort of pay close attention to others that have been promoted and sort of ask how they've done it and see if you can get, you know, take a page outta their book and, you know, kind of, you know, Hey, you were sort of missing a piece, oh, I don't know how to do that, or, oh, how do you do that? Right, you know, right. To the person and say, Hey, you're, you know, how'd you do this and, you know, and sort of apply it and use them as a template and just apply your own parameters and have at it. Right. I think that's a big one.

  Kyle: 29:11

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, that was something I noticed kind of when I was, you know, again, work study intern, I kind of made a step by step guide on how to get a full time job kind of deal like that. And there were a bunch of people that followed it, basically in my footsteps. And, you know, basically is I got promoted into the next position. They got promoted into my previous position and like rinse and repeat, you know, we were all just climbing the ladder together.

  Pat: 29:40

  Yeah. Like I said, I think that's important. I think, you know, see how other people have done it and, you know, go after them and say, Hey, how did you do this? And, you know, write yourself a checklist and, you know, use them as a template. And. Like I said, and put your own parameters and see what you can accomplish. But I think that's a big one. And the other thing too then with that is you sort of have to work on your resiliency a little bit when you're moving from tech or some something non-management, I should say to more of a leader role, whether that's a team lead or an actual manager title. Yeah. But when that promotion does come, you know, Hey, celebrate have at it, you know, that kind of thing, you know, put the stakes on the grill, right. Beers in the fridge. I get it. But I think then you sort of like once that honeymoon phase is over, right, that's a popular term, right? The first six months is the honeymoon phase. Once that's over man, look out. I think a lot of people don't understand the stress that. Is gonna bring with your new position. Cause you know, you work towards all this stuff to, you worked on all this stuff to get to where you go and now you're there and now people are like, all right, well, it's a, you know, the air is thinner up here. You gotta be able to perform, you gotta be able to, you know, things of that nature. You know, and I think leaders they deal with more people than regular techs do or non people in non-lead positions. Right. You know, you have to be a people manager, right. Again, talking you know, people's habits and personalities, things of that nature. So I think it, I think you need to work on the ability to sort of manage stress and improving. The work life balance, cuz that's important, right? Cause when you move to another rung of the ladder, your work life balance completely starts from zero. And you have to find that balance again because now you have more responsibility and less time to do it. And now you're trying to figure out, okay, am I really done at five? Or am I gonna come down at eight 30 when the kids are in bed and knock out two more hours? Or am I gonna go on, you know, are we gonna go out to dinner and don't have to worry about any of that or you know, that sort of thing. So I think those quote unquote soft leadership skills pay off as you advance to the higher levels. Cause the higher you go, the. BS and politics and that sort of thing, the stress you deal with, and it just, it's managing that stress is half the battle. So if you know what you're sort of walking into or what you're going to be responsible for, once you do get that title, I think working on it before you get to the front door is a good notion to have, I guess I should say it that way. and then this is the last thing here. And I, you know, jump in here wherever, but I, you know, I think no matter where you're at, right, whether that's at elite role, whether it's technical, non, you know, non leaving people, non-manager whatever, blah, blah, blah, I, at the end of the day, I think just to be a good employee is to create value wherever you can. Right. And I've seen different pieces of this at different places I've been, but a lot of managers, they think like dominating every conversation is a leadership trait. You're just like, Hey, you're doing it this way. Cuz I'm a leader and I belong here and blah, blah, blah. It's just, you turn a lot of people off that way per personally. I mean, it's just like, there's no need to slam your fist. When you walk into a room, we know you're we know you're a director, we get it. Like we respect that title. Like we know what you do. You don't have to come in here and you know, completely be whatever. But you know, I think there's value in again, creating value wherever you're at. So speak intentionally. Right? So no. So that you sort of become known for contributing valuable input, right? So just talking, just to talk is wasting people's times and you know, that sort of thing. You know, but I would, you know, I would look for ways to sort of, if you can streamline a process or, you know, anything to get more efficient, right. That's always a decent, a good way to create value. Right? People are always looking to get things done quicker, faster, stronger, better you know, so streamlining processes or you know, doing things quicker or, you know, that sort of thing. So if you're not good at that, I would say invest some of that, you know, freed up time that you're not in the technical weeds. It's developing that skill set or, you know, some projects or whatever that. Extra attention if you will. So I think that, you know, creating value is definitely a big rock, if you will, a big rock goal of, you know, of a lot of people. But I don't think that necessarily has to be at, you know, the management level, but that can be anywhere, but that's certainly valuable when people are looking at you for another, for added responsibility. If they're seeing you're creating value as much value as you can at your current role, then they're gonna like, oh, what else can we sort of squeeze outta him and see what else is there? You know, maybe that was the wrong word. I don't know. But now I, I think the value one's a big one,

  Kyle: 34:46

  Yeah, I would think so. Like you said, though, with the managers and when not coming in pounding their fists and like, you know, just cuz they're louder, they're more right somehow. And it's like the, you know, doesn't really go hand in hand and again with the you know, contributing where you can and creating value and stuff like that. Yeah. One of the simple things you could do is look at problem. Like fires that you get, you have frequently. And instead of getting behind it and putting the fire out, once it starts, you know, stop the fire from even starting in the first place and get ahead of it and stuff like that. So valuable instantaneously

  Pat: 35:24

  Yep. A hundred percent agree. Yeah. If you can stop fires or at least semi see them coming before they start, you know, and when they do start you're at step four of solving the problem, instead of step one, I think that's a major plus and should be noted really. Right. It should be, that should be noticed by a good boss that will be noticed. Right. So you know, it that, you know, but definitely, yeah, definitely anything you can find. You know, get ahead of the horse, if you will, or, you know, get ahead of the cart, whatever that phrase is. Right. You should be able to do that.

  Kyle: 36:02

  However, this modern rigging system works, you know,

  Pat: 36:05

  right. I just wanna, yeah. Go back to playing my Atari. Right.

  Kyle: 36:09

  These new horseless carriages.

  Pat: 36:12

  that's right. They had motors in them and stuff. I don't know. now the soils were kind of, I what was that? 10, nine or 10 10 different different things to that. We just kind of wrote down and you know, some of our experiences with that trying to, you know, show that, you know, promotion ready if you will. But I, I think a lot of it does have to do with your image and how you're seeing, you know, that sort of thing. And I don't know about you maybe I have a thought on this, Kyle, but you know, I used to think like first breaking into the industry, I thought, oh man, everybody's got their ish together. Like people know what they're doing. Like. This person is doing this and he's done this for years, so that's gotta be right. And blah, blah. And longer in the tooth I get in this industry, it really does seem that like, we're all just kind of winging it and learning on the fly and then wherever the ball lands, and nobody really gives a shit. like, maybe it's just me. I don't know if it's just me, just tell me, but yeah, people just seem to just wing it and like there's no, I don't wanna say like accountability cuz there is, but like you knows, just like, wow, is that really how it's done, man? Why am I not a manager? Cuz I can wing it too.

  Kyle: 37:20

  Right.

  Pat: 37:21

  kind of thing. you know,

  Kyle: 37:23

  roll the

  Pat: 37:24

  No, I've had some goods, some bad. Right? We all have. It's not a huge deal, but it's just so funny to me that like I thought like. Like, I looked up to the peers in this industry. Like they really have their stuff together. They know what they're doing and they've seen every problem and know what they're doing and blah, blah, blah. That is not the case at all. People are just, it, people in some aspects are just better at Googling than the regular folk. That's just what it is. it's just what it is. Sorry to give away the secret of the sauce, but some days, man, just like, holy God. And it's a funny story, but I sort of felt like that too. Like I, I, for the longest time and just kind of coming up in our world and Kyle, you probably can relate to this, but like, like when we were like, we were doing the Cisco stuff and like, we were me personally, I was such a Cisco Homer for years. I thought like Cisco was like the eye in the sky. Like they were the Cadillac, like nobody ever got fired for buying Cisco and blah, blah, blah. And they had all, you know, and we grew up on the CLI and you know, the interface and doing all the command line stuff and blah, blah. And I looked at this people like, man, they had the command line, like. Loaded in their brain and can just, you know, they know everything and blah, blah, blah, this and that. And then and then like the gooey stuff started to creep in it's like some of the more web based stuff, like when they bought Morra or, you know, or some of the ASA stuff with the, as SDM the gooey interfaces in the ASDM and I'm like, I was like such an old, I was such an old man in that aspect. And I'm like, I'm not using that fan dangled, gooey stuff. Give me the CLI. And I'm like, oh my God. Like, and then like, I had people that liked the cl or that liked the gooey that were right next to me. And they were doing things like three times faster than I was in, in the CLI. And I'm like, oh, maybe I should learn some of that gooey stuff. You know, that kind of thing. But I was such a stickler for that. And I'm like, Yeah. Then you look up to these people and like, man, they really must have like the entire CLI syntax in their brain. Cause they know it front to back and when they know what they're doing and I'm like, now that I got here, I'm like, nah, they just Google it. Like you just can't keep everything in your head. That's just not feasible. I don't know.

  Kyle: 39:32

  At least the nice thing with the CLI is he can make some scripts or little copy and paste kind of

  Pat: 39:37

  Yeah. The copy and paste has definitely helped. The scripting has definitely helped. You know, now I think it's sort of the opposite way right now. I think the go is slower than some of the CLI stuff is too. Like, especially in the cloud, like Azure or AWS, you're moving that. It's like, oh, come on. Like if I was in CLI this would've been copy and pasted in seconds, now I'm waiting now I'm waiting a minute and a half. How dare you? You know, that kind of thing. no, just a small tangent from me in an old Cisco workhorse, but I've branched out, you know, I see Cisco for what they are. They have their they're good, but they have their flaws. I'm not gonna sit here and, you know, whatever, but it is what it is. But no, so sort of flipping that script right. In the ways of getting promoted, right. You're promotion ready, those, you know, couple of things we just went through, most likely you're gonna either get promoted to a team lead or to a manager depending on your corporation's structure. Right. That's generally the gist of, you know, where you're getting promoted to. Right. So I guess we wanted to kind of take some time and say, okay, like what is a lead versus what is an actual manager and what are their sort of, you know, differences sort of thing. And I have some experience with a team lead. It wasn't the best, but it is what, you know, it was what it was. Right. So, I, you know, personally, I think, you know, there's things out there that say, okay, look, team lead is this, and this I, in my experience as team lead was just a person that the boss yelled at when something didn't work. Right. That's just where I'm at. Like, or people came to like other people's depart, like people in other departments came to me first and was like, Hey, this, that sort of thing, which makes more sense in a role of, okay, take that off the manager doesn't need to be the point of contact for your team. Like, unless you really need that manager and there's something on fire. Right. So, yeah, I had a little bit of that where I had the issues with team lead was, and this is probably just my own head. The guys that were in my team and there was only two other guys. It was me and two other guys in my, on my team. And I won't mention names or whatever, but for those of you that know me or listening to the show, you probably can deduce where this was. But you know, the two guys that were on my team, there was three of us, actually, there was only two of us for it had to be a year plus. And then they finally got a third guy about a year in and I was supposed to be the team lead, but, and again, maybe this isn't more in my own head, but like, they were both older than I was in age. So I always struggled with okay, like, yeah, they don't report to me, but I would feel weird if like, they sort of took orders for me. You know what I mean? Like, like, it's this weird, like, oh, I've been in this game longer than you have. Why am I taking orders from. A younger person sort of thing. Again, maybe it's just in my own head, but like, I didn't feel like I led them good enough because they've been, they were in the game longer and they, you know, they didn't, I don't know. I don't wanna say they didn't need me. But they could handle their own without, they didn't really, like, they didn't need a team lead the team. Wasn't big enough to have a team lead. So I had this, like, I had this weird title that didn't have any sort of responsibility to it. It had no power over those. I should say power. Like, it's an evil thing I had, like those two guys didn't report to me. I didn't sign their paychecks. So like, I felt weird going to 'em and like, Hey, could you do this? They'd be like, ah, you know, I don't report to you. Ah, you know, that sort of thing. So like that was always a weird spot. Right. And then, you know, so I felt like that was a weird sort of. Conundrum, but technically like the team lead's supposed to be, you know, setting goals for a team and, you know, again, you know, fostering those positive relationships that we talked about, you know, a couple minutes ago team building opportunities open communications thing, you know, encouraging that, you know, those types of things you know, any answering any questions or, you know, for the team and providing resources, you know, that sort of deal, which was tough for me as well because the guy that, one of the guys that I worked with was there longer than I was. So he didn't, what did he need from me? You know what I mean? Like he knew that network in and out. So he was coming to me very rarely, you know, for like decisions. He was like, he, like, he just wanted a second pair of ears. Most of the time he would come which is fine. But it was just, it was this weird conundrum that I could never quite like get my head wrapped around of why it was that way. But You know, and you know, more of the team lead responsibilities, you know, inspiring, you know, other members motivating them to reach their individual, you know, team goals, things of that nature. Providing a little bit of feedback, I guess, for, you know, performances and whatnot. And then obviously, you know, celebrating the team wins. Right. But you know, that all that came from like the manager and we all reported the same manager. So it was a weird, like, I felt like I didn't really have a place. And then like, you know, and then the manager sort of stepped away to work on a big project that they had. And then we kind of floated in space for like eight months. We just kind of floated, like, we didn't really have a, like we had a boss, it was a, he was a VP at the time. But, and he was great. He, you know, whenever we needed, he was responsive. He really got us what we needed, that sort of thing. And then, but then like we just kind of flowed to freight months and not really having a direction again with me not having any. Sort of, you know, authority over the other two guys. I couldn't move the needle, which, you know, I felt bad about, but it is what it is. And then they go, well, nothing's getting really done with the network team. We gotta hire a manager in there. Oh, okay. like, I wasn't just like, we weren't just floating for eight months and, you know, keeping the ship, you know, from not sinking, but you're gonna hire a manager from the outside that just didn't, you know, obviously that some riding on the wall there and I just, you know, I moved on, but yeah, so like team lead, but like, in my experience, the team lead was just, you know, Hey, why isn't this working? Hey, go do this. Hey, BBA. It wasn't, there was no really leading. And it was just kind of the bottom of the hill, but you know, it is what it is. But but like the manager then, you know, on that side of it, it's supposed to, you know, it's supposed to be more of, you know, they're more in the supervising roles, right. So, you know, the team or the. Group of staff members, whatever you know, creating those KPIs, right? The objectives for teams and departments. We talked about that a couple minutes ago, that's sort of their bread and butter budgets and deadlines, right? That's another one. That's a manager responsibility. Yeah, work schedules. If you have that sort of structure, right. Work schedules and you know, creating those or are manager responsibilities you know, the hiring, interviewing in the training process, that should all, that's all in the manager spot there as well. So, you know, there's a couple different, you know, obviously you can see the differences in, you know, what the team lead versus the team, you know, the actual manager is for, so, you know, I would say. You know, if you're in a bigger corporation, you probably have a better chance of team lead first and then manager. If you're in a smaller group you probably go right to manager, you know, that sort of thing. So that's just generally the way generally the way things go. But I think that's a good step as far as, you know, getting there and, you know, getting your feet wet with, you know, sort of managing people in a team lead and then, you know, getting bumped to that manager. But but yeah, that jump from non-leading people. So just a, you know, tech person and then. That jump into a team, either a team leader or a team manager that can be jarring. I think that it, it takes a certain type of person to really to really do that do well and Excel in that space. I think not everyone's cut out to be a manager and that's just, that just is what it is. I, yeah, I put it on tape. Yeah. I said it, but it just is what it is, but you have to have a certain mentality, be a manager or else you're just not gonna, you're not gonna cut it and people are gonna, people are gonna hate it and just start jumping ship. That's just the way it is.

  Kyle: 47:37

  yeah, it could be a, it'd be a tough change too. You know, like you don't wanna be the person who's just constantly micromanaging, you know, you wanna be able to have some contribution to the team, but you also need to trust your team to do the stuff that's assigned, you know? Cause if you're doing it all, then you're not really managing. You're just, you know, getting back into the weeds with it, it be

  Pat: 48:01

  team is just pushing buttons at that point and doing the paperwork that's it. I've had them. I've had those managers. They're not good. The micromanagers are just not good. They can't let other people do their thing. They just they just can't. They have to be in control of every aspect of it. And then you're just like, alright, I feel like I'm being squeezed to death. I gotta get outta here. And that's when you have the high turnover, right. You just have the revolving door and you're just, you spend more time on interviews than, you know, than doing actual work. And it's just like, well, what's that telling you? you know? Yeah. I've been there. It totally sucks. And I've actually been in a place where they wanted me to account for every 15 minutes of my day. And I was just like, once they implemented that I was. It's not happening. I'm starting to look for a new job yesterday. Like it was awful. Like literally I had to write down 15 minutes in a bathroom. Like it was that bad. I'm just like, what are you not trusting your people to do? Like, like if you have to track them every 15 minutes this is so toxic. I can't even, I don't even know where to start. like, it's so bad. It's so bad. But yeah, I've been at places like that. It's not good. And you know, the people that are micromanagers, they can't delegate. They can't delegate to save their soul. And it's like at a leadership position, you have to be able to delegate period. End of story. And you give people your chances. You give people rope. If they if then those people hang themselves with the rope, you give them, then that's a different conversation and that's a, you deal with it, but to not give them rope and to. You know, to sit there and micromanage and you know, this and that every step of the way, it's just, it's not good. You know, I, you know, you know, I've had managers put on meetings just for meetings and like one-on-one meetings. And then the whole, you know, in most of the one-on-ones, they're looking down at their watch, cuz it's buzzing from an email and it's like, am I like, I have other things to do with this window of time that you're just gonna keep looking down your watch every 30 seconds, like, come on, this isn't this difficult, you know, things of that nature. So, or, you know, I had managers that I was actually at a place where they said I had free reign to kind of shape the team the way I wanted it. And then they actually, somebody on said, team said, this is BS. I'm not taking orders from him. Meaning me. And then basically what that person did or the, he was the he's, it was a small shop. So it was basically co-owner at the time the co-owner made that person, a boss of everyone else and never told me. And so this person was then giving me orders to do something I'm like, I don't report to you. Like what's this? And then that's where the riff was. And that's where it started unravel. And then six months later I was out of there. It was just like, I don't have time for this. Like, this is crazy. So like, people like that, they just can't, they can't get outta their own way. Like they have to, I don't know. It's just, they can't delegate. They can't, you know, they can't do things. They can't let other people into the circle and it's just, it's not a good thing. So, sorry. That was a little bit of a tangent, but yeah I don't know. Do you have anything else with that, Kyle, as far as like management versus team lead or any sort of Psyche there that goes behind that.

  Kyle: 51:25

  I mean, at least the places that I've been I don't have a lot of experience with the team lead role kind of deal like that. It was just like, you. Reported to a manager or everybody was just kind of on the same level. And, you know, he might have had some sort of seniority because it's like, well, I've been here 13 years and you've only been here like eight, you know, kind of deal. I guess that's somewhat team lead, maybe, you know, just based on the the amount of time, but

  Pat: 51:56

  sure.

  Kyle: 51:56

  typically, you know, it was always more management kind of based. And I've had all of them, I've had micromanagers, I've had the people who abandon you once they kind of give you something, you know, they're like, Hey, do this. And then you're like, well, I'm drowning right now. And I can really use the hand and they're like, well, well better to learn how to swim real fast,

  Pat: 52:18

  all Right.

  Kyle: 52:19

  And then I've had probably

  Pat: 52:20

  five guys. See you later.

  Kyle: 52:22

  My, my favorite one is, you know, somebody throws you into the deep end of the pool kind of deal like that. And they watch you struggle a little bit. And if you start to go under they'll reach in and pull you out and, you know, show you kind of the errors of your way.

  Pat: 52:36

  Yep.

  Kyle: 52:37

  that's usually the best, but yeah, as far as team leads and manager kind of deal like that's about my experience that have had, you know, just those different types of managers and no team leads really, you know, but

  Pat: 52:52

  Yeah. Like I said, you, you're not gonna, you're not gonna see team leads everywhere. Right. It's just gonna depend on the structure of your organization. Right. And how it's laid out. But you know, like I said, most of the bigger ones you work for a bigger corporation or organization. You're gonna find yourself team leads or, you know, guys that not necessarily team leads. Like they don't have the title, but they're like the go to people that everybody goes to, like people know who knows, you know, people know, people that know their shit. let's just put it that way. Like people know there's no secrets of, you know, you know, but then again, like, okay, yeah. People know, you know, that's the go to person. All right. Like you said before, like, okay, I'm drowning. Like there's only so many people that can come to. Without me going under, so that's definitely a balancing act there as well. And I think that's, I think that is common in a lot of places. You have people that are go-to people that aren't recognized enough personally. I think that's generally the way it works is cuz then you give them the title. You give them the money, you're gonna give them, you know, this and that. And it's like, you know, businesses are, it's all about the bottom line, right? So they're gonna get away. They're gonna try to get away with as much squeezing that lemon as getting much as that, the juice outta that lemon as they can before, you know, the picket line forms on the front lawn. So see what happens. So, that, that was kind of it. I know that was a twofold one. I thought we talked about some really good things. So, if you let you know, if you liked it, hated it, let us know. Again, you know, that's what the survey is for out there that we have. So I'll be mentioning that in a minute or two here, but You have anything else, Kyle, to kind of wrap this one up we're right around that hour mark. So we wanna try to get outta people's hair and get moving.

  Kyle: 54:33

  I think we covered it covered it pretty well. There all those topics, like you said too far,

  Pat: 54:39

  Yeah. It was a twofer. I like to, yeah. We like to bundle things together here. We're bundlers so we can you know, so, uh, we try to take likeminded subjects and kind of, you know, tie together. So that's all good here. So,

  Kyle: 54:51

  Creating value as it

  Pat: 54:53

  that's right. That's right. That's right. For those of you that watch the American picker show, which I do when it's on, I, I do like that show I'm a history buff through and through history discovery, travel channel. All that stuff that's, it's on my TV all the time. When the kids aren't watching, but I watch American pickers when it's on. And for those of you that know the guy on there, Frank the shorter, heavier set guy of the two, he's a bundler, he gets the he goes into these barns and places and tries to you know, he tries to bundle things together. Okay. So, you know, this is I'll take this plate for a hundred bucks, but if I gimme the plate and the doll, you know, can I get 'em both for one 50. I like to bundle things together. That's us here in the show. We bundle it together. That's how we roll So

  Kyle: 55:34

  best value. Yep.

  Pat: 55:36

  We're a two for one special here. We got 'em coming hard and fast, but now everybody that's that's gonna be it for this week. Thank you again for joining. Thanks for joining this week and every week, really. We really appreciate everybody listening and you know, the feedback's been really good. So everyone's listening. So we're just gonna keep going. So we're gonna keep doing this until people tell us to stop so that let's just put it that way. so it's all good. Make sure you check us out on our website breaking bites, pod.io. That is where you can subscribe to the show on your platform or choice iTunes, Spotify, Google podcasts, Stitcher really anywhere that you've got your podcast. There's a link for it. RSS, feed's a plain RS feed too. You want that? That's there too. All of our episodes are there as well. So if you miss one go back and check it out there with transcripts as well. So transcripts aren't the greatest, but they do the job, but there are transcripts for every show that we have. I think we're up to episode 30, 35 or 36 now which is which is pretty cool. So we're full steam in the head here. So we got some really cool things coming up. Some break guests are in the pipeline, just trying to get schedules, worked out. And then also, if you are on iTunes, which the majority of you are, cuz that's the statistics that we get throw us a rating on iTunes. That would be awesome. Right. We've had a couple but we could always use more. Right. So throw us a rating. Tell us how much you love us or hate us. That'd be awesome. And then simply tell a friend too, right? Say, Hey, check these guys out or whatever. That would be awesome too. Right? Word of mouth is just as good these days. Again, follows on Twitter. Twitter LinkedIn is new for us. It's actually been doing pretty well. So we're we're climbing the counts. So the follower kind of LinkedIn. So, linkedin.com/breakingbytespod facebook.com/breakingdownthebites discord server invite is in these show notes for us. And then also, we have a survey out there that is also gonna be linked in the show notes of just a couple of questions for everyone there. We don't know who you are. It's completely anonymous. Just uh, I think there's like nine or 10 questions on there of multiple choice, just to help us with the show and how to do better and tweak and make sure we're staying on top of things. So, if you would take a few minutes to to fill that out, that would be awesome. And that's gonna be it, Kyle, another good one man in the bucks. Appreciate it. And we'll see everybody next week. Bye

  Kyle: 57:50

  Until next time.