Episode 37: Salary Deep Dive

This week we tackle the tough subject of salaries and how to approach salary negotiations. Some tips on what sort of mindset you need, some tools to help you know where to start, and just some general tips on how to approach your boss when it's that time.

Couple of websites that'll help you figure out where to start

www.glassdoor.com
www.fishbowlapp.com
https://www.roberthalf.com/salary-guide

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• View Transcript

  Pat: 0:30

  Hey everybody. Welcome back to this week's edition of Breaking Down the Bites, brand new episode, as usual, every Tuesday. Here we are. I'm your host, Pat. You can find me on Twitter at @layer8packet. That's the number eight. Kyle's riding shotgun. As always, he is on Twitter as well, @danath256. You can find the show on Twitter at @breakinbytespod. We're pretty active on Twitter and all of our social media, so come say hello. All of our links will be in the show notes. So definitely come say hello. We love chatting with everybody. So we are back for another week. Kyle. What's up man? How you doing?

  Kyle: 1:09

  Yeah, day, closer to the weekend, getting excited. You know,

  Pat: 1:13

  That's right. That's how we roll. Yep. Record on a Thursday release on a Tuesday. So right now it is Thursday the 29th. You guys will hear this Tuesday the fourth, which just happens to be my birthday. By the way, I'm a ten four guy.

  Kyle: 1:29

  Oh wow.

  Pat: 1:31

  be the big three seven this year. Look

  Kyle: 1:33

  Wow. Just a baby

  Pat: 1:35

  I know it's like some, it's like the most unassuming number ever. You're just, ah. And like, it's so weird cuz after a certain age, you just, you have to like calculate in your head how old you're gonna be. Cuz they just stop meaning things. It's just like, ah, birthdays don't mean much anymore. You have to like, like how old am I gonna be this year? Oh my god.

  Kyle: 1:55

  You'd be able to sign up for a r p soon.

  Pat: 1:57

  I know that's it. I'll be riding the bus for free. Look out

  Kyle: 2:01

  eating on the discount menu at Perkins.

  Pat: 2:03

  That's right. Gotta go before four o'clock Early Burns Special event, So, yeah. So, so everybody, welcome to another episode. This is gonna be a good one. I think we've had a couple requests for this one as well. Last week we did the imposter syndrome, which I thought was really good. We've gotten some really good feedback on that. So if you have not listened to that, go and do that right after this episode. Just keep 'em going. Just keep 'em playing. Podcast app you do. It just keeps on playing. That's us. Just keep on listening. Now, this week we're gonna talk about good stuff, some juicy stuff, some salary issues, I should say, issues. They're salary discussions, if you will. We've we've had a good good couple weeks run and then We've had somebody, there was a few people that actually requested this one. So we're gonna try to do with I justice and rock and roll here. But for a person who has switched as switched jobs, as many times as I have, right? So some days I'm proud of that. Some days I'm really not. But I don't necessarily like salary discussions. I. I definitely know the salary or the salary range going into a job, and that, that affects if I even apply for the job, right? It's like, all right, well, the salary's not in my range. Then, see, I just keep scrolling, keep thumbing through it. But you know, and I've negotiated a few times. I don't know, may, maybe it's just today's age and I'm a little bit in the old school, but, I never really gave a second thought to actually like negotiating a salary when I was first starting out. Like I just thought like, okay, the number is what it is, and there's like no wiggle room, to that. To come to find out there is wiggle room in certain situations, right? And it may not be from a dollar perspective, right? Say, Okay, look, you know, I'm just gonna use round numbers. Okay. The job posting was, you know, for 50,000 and you're like, ah, well, you know, But you may negotiate other things like you know, extra vacation personal time or you know, whatever. I've even seen some places do like, you know, volunteer days or you know, things of that nature. So, it's definitely, you know, always, you know, money is good, right? Money makes a world around, we get it. But if they're hard, fast on a number and there's not a whole lot of wiggle room there. There are some other things that you can negotiate with as far as part of your total compensation, cuz you gotta look at the total compensation, right? Like I said, money goes a long way, right? That's what everybody benchmarks. Their, you know, their obviously their livelihood around and you know, somebody even brag to their friends of, you know, look how much money I make, you know, kind of thing. But but you gotta look at the total package, right? So your health insurance and like I said, time off. You know, PTO and things of that nature. You know, and I've even had places that have unlimited pto, which is kind of a weird it's a weird thing to me, like you just have unlimited pto, but in some, in most aspects, like. Don't, it's not really unlimited. It's more of like, here we say we have unlimited, but then we like shame or guilt you if you actually take advantage of that, you know, that kinda, so it's really not unlimited. Yeah. That sort of thing. So, yeah, so we're just kind, trying to do some justice and see we can come up with here just a couple of bullet points that Kyle and I have kind of mapped out. And then we have a couple resources at the end to really. Hone in on the salary piece and you know, kinda even the playing field with with some of the you know, some of the numbers out there and you know, obviously depending on where you live and you know, that sort of thing. I think. Salary or just discussing salary, I think is a mind, it's a definite mindset, right? You have to get in that frame of mind. Okay, look, you know, it's like a negotiation, right? You're, you want one number. They're trying to get you. To a cheaper number, right? In most cases, to a cheaper number. I've actually had a place or two that I thought I was, Okay, look, this is a number. And they came in higher and I was like, Okay, rock and roll, like you know? So that, that does happen. Not often, but it does happen. And if it does happen, you know, you're you're sitting pretty good.

  Kyle: 6:00

  that's it.

  Pat: 6:01

  Yeah, it's definitely a mind frame o of. Try to sit down and go to battle in that in that aspect of it you know, and again, you sort of have to take in that mind frame. You have to take your feelings out of it as well. It's a pure business transaction at this point, right? It's A and b, and you're going to war and let's see who can, you know, you most likely meet in the middle, right? It's classic negotiation. You know, you want one number, they want another one, and you sort of meet in the middle. That's just the way it goes. But you have to take your feelings out of it, right? If you get all worked up about it and let your feelings get in the middle, then you're likely to settle for less than you know, what you wanted for. That's just, that's nature. That's the nature of who we are as people So, you have to kind of, you know, again, feelings out of. And you focus on what's truly relevant to that, you know, to that conversation, right? So, you know, taking a step back, things of that nature. You know, you're gonna ask yourself, look, you know, okay if they can't come up on number, will you will you be able to, you know, live with another week of vacation? Like, is the vacation worth? To you, that sort of thing. The last couple of places I've been, this is probably the last couple years, just the way the industry is going and maybe ka you the same same feelings here, but, you know, I never, I rarely ever, in the last couple years had to actually ask for a day off. Because it's just the nature of the business that we're in, that we're doing so much after hours cuz our, you know, change windows and maintenance and things of that nature. Most bosses are just like, ah, just whatever. Like, yeah, Like if you're going to the beach for like a week. Yeah. Then obviously that's a large block of time that you're gonna have to account for, but like a day or, you know, a couple hours you know, on a Friday to kick out when you did three or four hours of maintenance on a Wednesday or Thursday night, you know, that's, you know, if you have a good boss, they're not gonna bat an eye. I'd be, or like, you take a Monday off and, you know, they're gonna be like, Ah, yeah, no, no big deal. And it, you know, goes under the table. So I've had that, that the last couple years. I rarely have to ever. PTO in that instance because you put it in it evens out in the wash. Right. That's just the nature of the business we're in.

  Kyle: 8:19

  that's what I was always told. When it just comes out in the wash, you know, you stay in extra four hours, you know, you go home at lunch one day or something like that and just everybody's happy.

  Pat: 8:29

  That's it. So yeah, that, that flexibility really goes a long way. That's another thing to think about too. Like, okay, you can't, they can't come up on number or, you know, whatever. Like what's the flexibility look like in that? You know, is it a stiff and rigid environment? Now you won't be able to tell that into your sort of in the soup, right? But is it a. Um, it's stiff and rigid. Is everybody sort of walking on pins and needles? Does everybody have to account for every, you know, every second of their day? If that's the case, you know, you better be thinking twice about taking that position anyway, so,

  Kyle: 9:05

  Yeah.

  Pat: 9:07

  You didn't hear that from me, But no, I think I think that's a good one. And then front, like, so. In that same breath of the mind frame, so. Or I should say mindset. If you're established at a place, right? So you're kind of stepping back and looking at like, okay, look, you know, did you meet your KPIs, right? Your key performance key performances or any kind of metrics that they've set. You know, have you met them? Have you exceeded them? Right? You know, do you have any areas. That you know, that you performed in, that you showed improvement in, right? So, did you gain any new skills? Right. You know, what sort of incentive targets you know, are, have you exceeded or hit, you know, that all comes up at salary discussion time too. So, you know, hey, if you're really killing it, rockstar and you have it documented that you are, that's you. That's a hard you know, that, that makes your negoti, that makes your side of the negotiation table easier because now you have proof say, Okay, look, I did this, and this. Here's my metrics. Here's my KPIs. Here's, I met this I got stronger in this. I learned. New skill A, you know, and it sort of build a, a resume from a salary perspective, right? It's like, all right, look here, this warrants all of this because X, Y, and Z. So, so that's another one to just kind of. Build your own case, right? Help yourself in that, as in that aspect of things you know, have you brought any additional cap, you know, capacity, you know, to your team or are you contributing in different ways in what you were hired for? Right? So that, that's a big one too. Like, you know, hey, you get hired to be a software developer and then you're doing. You're doing other types of dev, right? You're doing DevOps or you're, you know, you're doing front end stuff instead, a back end or, you know, whatever. So have you sort of expanded that footprint of, okay, I'm helping, you know, Alright. I know my team needs a DevOps guy. They don't really have one. They're not hiring for one, but I've done, you know, I've done a shade of the DevOps stuff, right? So that's a good feather in your cap if you will as well. So, You know, you know, things of that nature. So, you know, and we talk about this, we've talked about this a couple weeks ago. Value, right? You bring in value to your company, to your position, right? Have you brought any more value in the last, you know, whatever timeframe, six months, you know, a year, whatever. You know, those are all questions that you should be asking again, Negating the feelings from it you know, taking the feelings out of it. But, you know, those are just some hard, steadfast questions that you should be answering. And then if you can answer them truthfully, and if it looks good, great. I would go to the boss and have a sit down and say, Look, you know, here's my ammo. You know, if it doesn't look so great, you don't really think you. You're ready for that yet you have things to improve then, you know, hey, revisit in three months and see where, you know, really kind of push yourself to that, you know, to that level. So, yeah, totally. I could totally see that happening. So, whe like I said, whether you know, keep your, keep track of your accomplishments and, you know, a word or Google doc or, you know, anything like that just be ready to share that when the time comes. So, that, that was. My thought process there, Kyle, anything? Anything for you.

  Kyle: 12:05

  Yeah, I would definitely say the things that you contribute, do, add value, write 'em all down. Because yeah, if somebody asks you on the spot, you're probably not gonna be able to list them all off or do that kind of stuff and they're, you know, you might miss some accomplishments, which. Then you missed getting that, that bump or the salary that you're looking for.

  Pat: 12:24

  Yep. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. And you know, I write down quite a few things. And just say, Hey, you know, these are notes for later. Or you know, cuz it's hard to keep everything in your head. So definitely, you know, write those notes down Word or Google Doc is obviously popular these days cuz you know, it's Google, right? So, you know, anything like that. I'm a big proponent of outlines style notes. So I, I do that, you know, quite a bit. So I, or like a mind map the there's a bunch of. out different mind maps. So you just kind of take like one core idea and then have all these offshoots of, you know, different ideas or something that supports the core idea. So either like an outline or a mind map that typically works, you know, best for me. So you just have to find Find what works best for you, but definitely write it down. That way you have all your ducks in a row and all your ammo ready for when the salary time comes. And it comes once a year, right? So it's just a standard thing in today's business world. Some places do it you know, in January the beginning of the year, or some places do it. You know, at. The beginning of their year, like, you know, a June or July or, you know, whatever their fiscal year is. So I've been in, I've been in both places. So, yeah just kind of know your environment and give yourself the best chance to really, you know, Be the best version of you. Right? And get what you came for, Right? That's the idea. So, the other thing too kind of the bullet point we have here is, you know, do your homework right. Know, know what others in your similar roles are getting paid, right? And there's a bunch of sites out there for that. Glassdoor is one of them, right? Uh, Glassdoor Kyle you mentioned

  Kyle: 14:01

  Fishbowl.

  Pat: 14:02

  Fishbowl. Yeah. I'm not familiar with that one. Kyle, what do we know? You know what that, or have you used it or do you have kind of a little background on that?

  Kyle: 14:08

  It's kind of like anonymous. You put in your role kind of deal like that. And it posts, you know, from like the role perspective, not so much like, you know, Hey, I work at this company and this is what they're doing to me. So it makes it a little easier for people to kinda react and give you answers. You know, without kind of being, put your name out there and all that kind of stuff, but you can ask questions about salary or, you know, if you're being treated fairly at a workplace or something like that. And, you know, people respond and give you good advice, at least from what I've seen so far.

  Pat: 14:44

  Cool. Yeah, so check out Glassdoor is a good one. I've used that quite a bit. So that kind of gives you a little bit of a a touch on salary range. It also gives you a little bit of an insight something like a peer review site kind of thing of. Said company. So it kind of gives you a peek into the company culture from various different positions and people that leave reviews. Some are good, some aren't you know, so you gotta take that for what it's worth too. And, you know, kind of looking at that. But not every position has like a, has a monetary number salary tied to it, but you can kind of get a range of, you know, of what you're worth or what they're. You know what they're going for. So if you're working through a recruiter, is he throwing a higher number at you or a lower number or, you know, so, but at least have data to back up and say, Look, okay, yeah, I did my homework. Other people in this company with similar roles are getting paid X. You're offering me y. And kind of come to a come to a middle ground and say, Okay, look, I can do this for that, you know, that sort of thing. So, but yeah, definitely like doing your homework and having the right motivation puts you, I would say the right motivation puts you at ease of salary negotiation. I would definitely like I said, the more homework you have, that seems to be a theme of this episode, the more homework and the more data you have, the better off you are. Yeah, but I think you need to sit down either with the hiring manager or if you're working through a third party recruiter, just sit down and say, Look you both had to come to an acceptable range. Say, Okay, look, and I'm just using round numbers. Okay, 50, you know, the low end, 50 grand, high end. 70 grand, whatever. But it, so you need to agree on that, but if you don't agree on that's your's, Like world's apart, right? That's the first thing you need to do is agree on an actual range. And then once you get in that range, then it's time to go to town. And so you can come out in the higher end of that. So, but yeah, definitely agree to that. And that all depends on obviously some standard factors, right? So, The job market you live in, right? So where you're at in the country, that's gonna definitely help, or I should say, that's gonna affect what your you know, what your salary is. I think different verticals as well a factor in that. So, you know, Tech companies, you know, typically tech companies pay higher than manufacturing companies or, you know what I mean? Like, that's just what it is, Right? You know, but that also leads to a discussion of, okay, you know, the company you're going into, no matter what vertical it is, like, do they c it as a money maker or. Cost center. Right. And I think we both know the answer to that one. Most of the time. And don't be surprised. Most of the time it is just a cost center and it ju it's not looked at as a money maker. Right. You know, which there's arguments on both sides of that to get it. But some places I've been literally just look at it as just a number and they do just enough. They throw just enough money at it to keep the lights on, and they never quite get to that next level of, Okay, look, this could really work for us. Instead of them working like instead of it working for you. it really work for you. You know what I mean? Like it's one of those things like, you know, it's, it is usually behind the apple cart. Not pulling it from the front, right? So, that's just what it is and it's just the time we're in and but whatever. But side tangent on that, but yeah, again, you have to know the market you live in, right? So you can't, like, you can't live in a rural Kentucky and then be like, I want 150 grand a year. That's just not, that's just not happening, right? So now in San F. That's a different story, right? So it all depends on what part of the country you live in and you know, what the average income and the means are that of the place of the country you live in. So Kyle and I are in the US so that's what we're based our data off here. So if you're elsewhere, then you know that applies to you. That's so weird. Sometimes I forget, this podcast is, International and we have people live like listening all over and I'm just like, so like, we're just so honed in on the US cuz that's where we live and it's just so prevalent. But like, yeah people listen outside the US and we certainly appreciate So shout out to everybody that's outside the US and definitely shout out to everybody that lives here too. So it's all good. Shout out to everybody. Let's just cover it. Shout out to everybody. So yeah, and kind of getting back to task here I think it's important for you to understand the manager's side of the deal as well. So like, you know, you know, is there like a pay band that applies to the role? You know, how does that stack up against specific skills or, you know, you know, any sort of accomplishments with those pay bands. Right? So, you know, or if you're in a current role, right, that applies to your current role but also in a current role. Like does your manager have sufficient budget for raises? Cuz some places don't. Like there's not a whole lot of room and, you know, in today's economy, Whatever everyone feels about it. It, you know, the belt is tighter. It's just, it just is what it is. We're in this weird cyclical you know, kind of lull, but you know, some places don't, some places don't have room for you know, for raises for the magnitude of reasons. Every reason is specific to, you know, what the company is doing, you know, performance wise. But, you know, you sort of have to understand it from their perspective as well of, Okay, look, you. Yeah, I can't give you a's because X or hey, you gotta wait, you know, for three months until that big account, you know, whatever pays their bill or, you know, we land a big account or whatever. You know, there's there's many factors into, you know, into doing that as well. So we're trying to come at this from, you know, a new person trying to start, and then also from. Person that's there trying to actually go for a raise, but you know, an established, you know, employee as well. So, and then, you know, also just getting back to, you know, what else are you willing to offer? Or, I said, what else? What else are you willing to accept? If a pay increase isn't on the, in you know, in the cards, right? Total compensation. Talk about it before you know, greater bonuses or instead of payout, right? Again, PTO or stock options. And that was, you know, we didn't talk about that before. Stock options or, you know, healthcare benefits if you can, you know, get those for cheaper. Two that's important there too. So, you know, it's there, there's a multitude of ways to kind of skin this cat. But and I guess that was the end of that particular chunk. Do you have anything there, Kyle?

  Kyle: 21:14

  Yeah. I mean, you know, Sometimes if you can't get just an actual salary raised and stuff like that, like you said though, you can get maybe a performance bonus or a one time kind of, you know, it helps. Couldn't hurt, you know. But you also, I mean, you could just, you could be the victim of starting salary too. You know? Sometimes you just gotta get. You gotta get up to speed, you know, cuz you're just way underpaid, Cause you started it, you know, $35,000 a year or whatever and you're like getting your raise and your bonus and stuff or whatever, but you're just it, you know. Never caught up to its current

  Pat: 21:54

  no, that's a good point. I didn't think about that before, but it's definitely a good point. I've seen a lot of places where like, You know, and I'll take my I'll take it happens everywhere, but I, this happened to me when I was at my very first job in the tech support role, and I came in at, you know, X amount of dollars per hour and then, you know, I was there seven years, so I, you know, year, you know, year three, year, five year, whatever, like they had, you know, they brought brand new people starting in tech support that were making just as much, if not more than I was. And it's just like, What are we doing? I'm, I'm here longer, and the new guy comes in and gets, you know, gets a buck an hour more or whatever, and, you know, again, you have to adjust for, you know, the times and such. That's why I. Salary discussion is so important cause you, you have to stay ahead of the curve or else, you know, new guys are, new guys and gals are gonna come in and you know, pretty much make what you're making and you look like a schmuck, you know, that kind of thing. So it has happened before and it's like, that's a punch to the gut cuz then it's like, all right, if I'm not gonna get paid the same as the new guy and I've cut my teeth. On, you know, in this company and it worked my way up and I'm getting paid just as much as the new guy coming in here. That's when you start seeing people hit the streets and actually get paid with their worth. So it's a slippery slope, but that's why I think salary discussion is important cuz you gotta, every year you gotta go in there and be like, Look, I did this, or I did this and I did this. And as they, they don't come to play or at least, you know, put on a good face, then hey, you gotta do what you gotta do.

  Kyle: 23:29

  Yep.

  Pat: 23:30

  It is what it is. But I think, and the other point here is, you know, you gotta set in today's age, there's, you have to look at it again, like a business transaction, right? Take your feelings out of it, things of that nature. So I say this last one with, you know, take it for what it's worth, but you sort of have to set everybody up to win. You know, if you're just playing the game to see the biggest payoff for yourself, no matter what that cost is, right? If you're gonna throw your other teammates under the bus or you know, Talk shit about your manager and then get, you know, you know, it's small world, right? We talked about that before. He's even, you know, they are, they're eventually gonna find out. So if you're playing that game to get the biggest payoff just for you, no matter what you gotta go through or what the cost is, it's generally not the best idea. It doesn't play out well, right, So, it. Because that sort of like sparks resentment in that aspect, right? You kinda, you get that label and once you get that label, it's hard to get that label off. It really does. I mean, I've been that label a few times and it's just like, Oh, this is the worst. Like, you just never go anywhere cuz you're just you're just that guy or that gal, Right. um,

  Kyle: 24:46

  I'd, I'd say the same thing, Pat, about, you know, going and playing hard.

  Pat: 24:50

  Right. Right.

  Kyle: 24:51

  if you're the guy on, on the team or whatever, you're senior and you're like, I want this or I'm out. You know, like, and you put 'em between a rock and a hard place. Like you can maybe do that once but you know, it's not gonna really do you a whole lot of favors in the

  Pat: 25:06

  Right, Right. No, exactly right. Yeah. You go in there and playing hardball and acting like your, you know, your shit don't stink. That's not gonna, that's not gonna work. Like I said, it may work once, but you try that again. There's way too many people out there with the skill set that you have that they're not gonna give them the headache that you do. That's just what it is. So yeah, it's just be mindful of. You know, I have had that happen before. People go in there and they just don't, they just like, All right, well, we don't need you anymore. See ya. And that's, you know, there's plenty of other people out there that aren't gonna give us the headache and, you know, it is what it is. And it's like, whoa, that's, that didn't work out the way it was supposed to you. It's like, Oh boy. You know, that kind of thing. But No I would say don't go in there playing hardball. I would say for most people, you sort of have to find that balance of where everybody wins, right? And that comes back to knowing what kind of position your manager is in. You may not know the minutia of what he's, you know, what they're thinking but have a general idea of, okay, like you kind of know if the company is doing well or not. Like if you're really paying attention, you should know if the company. Doing well, or, you know, there is a chance that you're missing, you know, missing bonuses this week, or bonuses and or pay raises, you know, this cycle. You know, so kind of know what he's, you know, what he's working with before you, you know, before you walk in there. So if you're looking for sort of a, you're looking for a win to win, right? And that puts your boss at a better place. It puts you in a better place. And like I said, you know, you have one, one set of ideals of what a win is. He's got another one and it usually ends up somewhere in the middle. That's just what that's just what it is. It's the art of the negotiation. You know, so, When you go in there, you try to talk Val again, talk your value first and then your, you know, your price second. Right? And that seems like a counterintuitive thing to do, but you know, if your value talks for itself, the, you know, the price is gonna come. Now whether that price is with your current employer or with someone else, that's. Up to you. But yeah, value first, what can you do for a company and in that, you know, that turns into a dollar amount that you're most generally, you know, most times satisfied with. So, that's just, that just is what it is. It's the way the world works today.

  Kyle: 27:20

  I think that would come back to like have that communication with your manager, but again with your here's my assets cuz. Obviously you want the value of getting paid and they want the value of this guy is a performer and gets stuff done and makes us money. Cuz ultimately like, you know, they're in business to make money.

  Pat: 27:42

  Sure.

  Kyle: 27:43

  And looking out for themselves. The same thing as you. You're like as an individual, I like money cuz it gives me the freedom to do the stuff that I want. Do

  Pat: 27:51

  That's right. That's right. We got expensive hobbies these days. That damn

  Kyle: 27:56

  even food.

  Pat: 27:57

  That's right. And just as another tip, I would just say, you know, you know, when you go in there and talk to your boss just. Be natural, but you gotta be confident in that same breath, right? You can't go in there like pins and needles and like a one big stress ball. He's, you know, they're gonna pick up on that right away. You know, I would, you know, natural, confident and then, you know, that helps with the ease of. You know, the better prepared you are, I would think. Right? So that kind of thing. So, you know, try again. Think, win, win, keep positive from beginning to end. Right? And, you know, but at the same time, like, be ready for pushback, right? They, you know, It's like a car deal, right? and I just bought a car. It's literally a car deal. Like be prepared for pushback. They're going to push back. They're going to say, Well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They may even get up and go to the cafeteria for a cup of coffee. Don't let that scare you. No Um, Nah, just be prepared for pushback. And it's not a bad thing it's, you know, most of the time it's constructive and, you know, if you have a good boss, they wanna see you do well too. But he's, you know, they have a framework to work within and like I said, usually falls somewhere in the middle, so there's not nothing crazy there. So there's a couple of tips on what that looks like and how to, you know, how to handle some of those things. But yeah, we mentioned Glassdoor. We mentioned fishbowl. Try and do that. The other thing too, I've used it a few times in my career is Robert Ha, which if those of you that don't know Robert Ha has, is a nationwide recruiting firm. And I've used a, I've used a few of their recruiters there. They have what they call a salary guide that they do every year. So you just do a search for Robert Half Salary Guide that brings you right to it. But basically the gist of it is, you know, It's an actual guide, like a PDF kind of deal. You give your name and your email and you know, you kind of tell 'em what you're looking for. Like, I, you wanna find out, you know, hey, how much you can earn, or if you're a hiring manager, how much I should pay for someone, right? So, and they give you the whole, you know, they give you the spiel of, you know, a whole PDF on, on You know, salary ranges for per position and you know, part of the country you're in Cetera, et cetera. So, and, but also right there on there, on the website, it gives you the, i, it gives you the option to put in what your title is in your city that you know, that you work in. And it gives you a low end, a medium, and a high. For what your actual position title is. So, if you feel free to use that, if you'd like to again, just more leverage to, you know, see what you're getting paid for. But but yet they're sort of all over in that, in the space, right? So they're in, you know, finance, accounting or technology and marketing and, you know, administrative support, customer support, legal, healthcare, human resources. They're in very. Verticals. So, check that out. I'll have the, we'll have the uh, link to that salary guide in the show notes if anybody wants to check that out. So, anything else, Kyle, on, on the salary stuff?

  Kyle: 30:46

  Again, with the, you know, giving 'em some metrics and stuff like that cuz if you bring it to your manager, there's a good chance that your manager's not the one who gets to make the final decision. He's gotta advocate for you, kick it up the ladder and stuff like that. So the more information and data points kind of that you have that says like, this guy's worth his his weight. You know, give it all you can.

  Pat: 31:10

  Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. Yeah the more you make your boss's job easier and advocating for you the better. I think. I think that's a great point. And just kind of, you know, kind of go from there. But I, I was always the guy that like, Hey, you know, Hey, this company's willing to hire me and this is what the salary is. And there was, I was like, happy with that. Like there was no room for wiggle room. But, you know, I think in today's, you know, new school age there definitely is wiggle room for various things, right? So get out there and do your thing and. Yeah, but it's, you know, it's a negotiation at the end of the day. It is what it is. You just gotta be prepared for that. So, and the other thing too I'm, you know, maybe this is an old school thought of me, of myself, but like, I, you know, when I started out, like nobody really talked about like, salaries or what other people were getting paid for or, you know what I mean? Like, you see that too? Like, I think, I feel like it's a lot more open now than it used to

  Kyle: 32:05

  Oh yeah, definitely. Everybody was like you. They played the cards real close and stuff like that. Like nobody talked salary, nobody talked, you know, it just wasn't something you did.

  Pat: 32:17

  right, right. Yeah, I feel like that today is it's way more open than it used to be. Now I don't have been really coming up to me and think, Oh yeah, I make this much, You know, that kind of thing. But it's .But like, if, you know, if you're having a conversation, it sort of morphs into that, especially around, you know, the boss says, Hey it's raise time. Like that tend, it tends to come up in that context. You know, I don't mind telling people like what I make, but you know what I mean? Like, that has to come up. Conversation in the context that you're having it, not just, you know, on left field, like, Hey, I make whatever, you know, that kind of thing. But yeah, you're right. Like a couple years ago, just real close to the chest, nobody talked about it and that was like a sacred number between you and the boss, you know? But I think the more people talk about it, the more evens the playing field. It takes away some of. The guessing game, I guess is, I don't know if that's the right word for it, but it takes, you know, takes away someone to leverage guessing game out of that whole, you know, whatever. That, that whole negotiation or, you know, so like you have three people on a team and you know, one's making 10 to 15 grand more than the other two, and it's like, well, you're all on the same team. They all roughly do the same things. What, where? Disparity here. Like, you know what I mean? And years ago, like that never would've even been a thing cause nobody talked about it. Now I think it's a little more commonplace to, you know, to kind of share some of that. And again, that kind of takes some of the power out of, you know, The manager's hands, or even, you know, company's hands and saying, Okay, look, we can't get away with this anymore because people know what they make, You know, that kind of thing. So, but I've found that interesting that there was, it's a lot more prevalent in today's world that people talking about their salaries with other folks than it used to be even 5, 5, 10 years ago.

  Kyle: 34:05

  That, that's one of the nice things about like glass orange stuff too, cuz you can kind of find out without having to have that conversation with somebody,

  Pat: 34:16

  Yep.

  Kyle: 34:16

  If that's something you're not comfortable doing, you can kind of be like, Well, let me go see what we got going on here.

  Pat: 34:22

  Sure. Yep. It definitely levels the playing field, a lot of these sites. Right. And honestly, I, you know, depending on the environment that you're in, and the culture that you're in. I don't necessarily know that I would even entertain a job if the salary wasn't in the job posting. You know, And that kind of goes back to the first point we made. Like, look, if it ain't in the job, if it's not your wheelhouse, don't take it. But if the salary's not even posted in the original job, I wouldn't. I wouldn. I wouldn't take it either cuz that it, to me, that tells me they're trying to hide something or play some shady ass game that they're not that, you know what I mean? So, yeah, it just kind of stay away from stuff like that. It just doesn't make any sense to open that door if, you know, if the door isn't enticing to open, let it shut. Right. it's just what it is. That was kind of it. I think that was those were the big points that we wanted to make and you know, again, just trying to give you some value on, you know, some of the hiring process or what it, you know, what to look for in a salary and, you know, things of that nature. So, yeah, you know, and to be honest, like, I guess one parting thought I would have here, but you know, I. Over the last couple of years that I've job hopped quite a. I've made some, I made some friends with some recruiters as well, Like they're actual like friends of mine, not just, you know, Hey, I'm starting to look. What do you have out there for me? I would go, you know, if you have a friend that's a recruiter or maybe someone that's a little longer in the tooth and you know, it's got a couple more years on you in the industry, you know, ask how they do it or, you know, even from the recruiter perspective, say, Hey, how you know, It's time for a bump or, Hey, you know, what do you think of this job posting even, I know it's not yours, but you know, what do you think of this job posting? Is there any red flags here? Or those recruiters know that they deal with that every day, right? They know what's good and what's bad, and what's a, you know, what's a fishing attempt, you know, that kind of thing. I mean, I get head hunters all day long and it's, Some of that stuff is like, geez, you even read, like, do you even proofread what you're sending people? Cause this is awful it's just so bad. Yeah I would run it by the recruiter and say, Hey, you know, I came across this, you know, it looks pretty good. What do you say? And, you know, let them kind of, you know, steer you, hey, you know, give it a shot or now's there's a red flag and you know, they're red flags because x, you know, that kind of thing. So that's just one kind of parting thought there. Anything else, Kyle, before we kind of wrap up? I is a little shorter one, but,

  Kyle: 36:54

  I would say too, you know, with your searching and whatnot too, you gotta keep your apples to apples. Cuz in the age of like remote work now, you know, if you got some California prices going on there and then you're like you said, you're living in Kentucky, you can't go to the Kentucky place and be like, well they're willing to pay me. You know, x, y, z

  Pat: 37:16

  That's right. Yeah. Now it's all relative to where you live. And most places now, like even from a remote perspective, like they base it off the state you live in that's just kind of what. And I think that, you know, they have to do that for tax purposes and all that kind of crazy shit too. So, you know, so when they're opening a position for that, they kind of tweak for that. For that scenario, I guess, you know, call it. So, yeah, so just be able to look out for that. But yeah, I mean, sites to look for Glassdoor has its own you know, job engine search plus the things we mentioned. You know, the standard ones, right? Indeed. Dice. Actually, you know, LinkedIn has become quite a, a. Piece of that as well. Looking for that, cuz then it kinda, you know, if you have a decent LinkedIn profile it it kind of tailors jobs free, you know, for you, it puts it in your feed. So you know that's a good one too. I've had I've had some good luck on LinkedIn the last couple of years and cuz you know, a lot of. A lot of people on LinkedIn are, you know, business minded. So they're looking for, you know, they're looking for you. So, so yeah, so I would definitely give LinkedIn a shot as well. So, that's kind of it. Kyle, you good?

  Kyle: 38:21

  Yeah,

  Pat: 38:22

  Good outta here. Couple notes that we've, that we had or that we have, I should say. First of all, we had Nikki Townson on a few weeks ago just to come chat and it was a great time with her. And we mentioned her nonprofit called TechaWare. And it's getting people, or I should say getting women into the field into the tech field. Into the tech space. So, and she runs a few her company Tech Aware runs a few women Wine. Tech events that are sporadic throughout. They started here in the Pennsylvania area where Kyle and I live. She's from Pennsylvania here as well. And now they're starting to branch out. So, we just got some dates on The first one that's gonna be outside of the Pennsylvania walls here. They got one in Boston coming up. So, actually it is in, it's in the Boston area. Burlington, Massachusetts, so it's in a Boston suburb. So, Burlington, Massachusetts Women Wine and Tech. By Tech Aware it's at the Microsoft location, which is five Wayside Road in Burlington, Massachusetts. It is Thursday, October 27th. So just under a month from now. Five 30 to seven 30 Eastern time. So if you're in the area, and you wanna go check it out you can register. It is free to register the event is free. All you have to do is sign up and tell 'em that you're coming. The plug for us is, We partnered with our good friends at CBT Nuggets and yeah, shout out. And they have graciously donated two six months subscriptions to their training platform to give away at the event. So, yeah, so that's incentive for you to go as well. You could win a subscription to for CBT nuggets. And to be honest with you, I do CBT nuggets for all my Cisco. this, you know, when I was doing the Cisco stuff, I still am to, to a little, you know, to a degree today. But I've used CT nuggets for a long time. So they're they're very they've been very good to me and they're gonna be very good to anybody that's really that, that's using them. So they have some really topnotch instructors and some really cool stuff. So, yeah, so that is a note here as well. So, Women Wine and Tech, Burlington, Massachusetts, five 30 to seven 30, October 27. So, we'll put a, we'll put a link to the, it's an event Bright. Site the registration. So if you want to register and go, all you have to do is register. It is free. Just show up and your name is in a hat for the subscription. So go support them. Go meet some great people. And there's wine involved. Why, You know, why not so It's all good. So, and there's a there's there's a description about the event. On that site. So, it'll be good. I think they're doing headshot, so if you need a headshot taken head, you know, head there you can network with other women. Career tips and resume building and financial planning. And then of course the wine and, you know, all the comradery. So, go there and hang out. So, the link will be in the show notes, so check that out. The other thing too was last year Dean and I were nominated for the Cisco Champion program that Cisco runs. And basically what Cisco champion is it's a community of content creators or You know, heavy hitters in the Cisco space world, whatever gonna call it. We were nominated as a as a top podcast for in, in Cisco's eyes last year. So, very grateful for that. Dean and I have since been inducted, if you will, into the Cisco Champions class of 2022. So now Dean and I are part of a exclusive You know, kind of community where we get a whole bunch of stuff, you know, swag and we get insider information on Cisco's tech products and feedback and all kinds of crazy stuff that we get to. Be a part of. So, and then obviously that's our, you know, we get access to a whole bunch of really smart people that are gonna be guests on this podcast. So we're gonna, we're gonna try to pluck them and and get them to come on a show and hang out and talk and whatnot. And then I will be, There's Cisco Champions Radio in the next whenever they can fit me in. So that's a good plug for us as well. So, that'll be there as well. Yeah, so Cisco Champions, that reminds me, Kyle, you gotta sign up or you gotta do get on the board with the with the Cisco champion stuff for this, for next year. So I think. I think enrollments are coming up 20 20 20 I think in the next month or so for next year. So we'll get you on and get you into space and come hang out with us, man. It's a cool club,

  Kyle: 42:41

  Oh. Get to hang out with the cool kids

  Pat: 42:43

  That's right. Look out. Yeah, so that's gonna be cool too. I think that's it. Those are the two things we want to mention. Again, all of our, all this stuff will be in the show notes view. Want to take a peek at that and otherwise we are gonna, Get outta your hair, get you, get back to your day or your night, wherever you're listening from. Appreciate everybody joining this week as usual. Our website's still out, there you can subscribe to the show on your favorite podcaster, right? ITunes or Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher or if you just need an RSS feed there's one there as well. If you're already in iTunes, which most of you are throw us a rating, that would be awesome. Five stars are great, but if you have constructive criticism, we'll take that too. Simply tell a friend, right? That works just as well. That think sometimes that means a little more if a friend tells you to listen to a podcast So, that would be awesome. Tell a friend again, follow us on Twitter. We're on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn we have Discord server that we have. All that stuff isn't the show notes for everybody. We have a survey out there, right? So that's on our website as well. That just helps us tweak the show a little bit, get some feedback from everybody. So, yeah, that's it. Another good episode. Kyle, thanks for joining us. It's been awesome and, uh, it's always a pleasure, my friend. We'll see everybody see everybody next week.

  Kyle: 43:59

  so long.