Episode 24: Really Breaking In with Zach Hill
This week Zach Hill from IT Career Questions sits in for Dean and we talk about what it takes to actually break into the industry, free content out there, how social media has a negative effect on us and his current gig at TCM Security! Join us as we break it all down!
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Pat: 0:01
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to this week's edition of, so you want to be in it. We're a podcast in those starting their journey out in the vast world of it. We talk about breaking in, getting some experience, climbing the ladder management office politics, and literally everything in between. So if you've been here before, welcome back. Thanks for joining. We are going to be with you for about an hour if you're new to here. Welcome. Thanks for joining. We'll be here about an hour. So, now we're really glad you're joining. W we've gained some really good traction over the last couple of weeks. It has some really good, great guests. I'm your host, pat, and you can find me on Twitter. @layer8packet. That's the number eight. And it is just me this week with a guest Dean is out this week, doing some things with work and these tied up. So I figured we'd just keep the train rolling here. So, this week I have recruited a co-host with me. ,you know, him from the Twitter space. He's pretty big on Twitter and YouTube and his live videos. Zach from TCM security has asked how are you?
Zach: 1:00
Good, How are you doing, sir?
Pat: 1:02
Good, man. I'm pretty good. Thanks for joining. This is awesome. I have some really good conversations here around some newbies because SAC this podcast in your mission, if you will, your Twitter and your I want to say main purpose in life, but a big part of it. I think they line up well, right. You're trying to do. You know, newbies in the space where people try to break in into the it industry, you and I both know it's booming, there's enough to go around for everybody. And that, it just seems to be that there are some high walls out there in certain circles that it's just a little bit tougher to break in. So, I think we line up very well and glad to have you on the show and let's chat about that a little bit.
Zach: 1:39
Yeah, for sure, man. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you guys for having me on. I appreciate it. Excuse me. Yeah, so, I mean, I have my, the it career questions, YouTube channel, which I started back in 2014 now. So, you know, I've been, that's been my mission. Yeah. My purpose for the last, how many years that's been, I dunno, it seems like forever at this point, but just to help people break down the doors and getting into it, because you know, at that time in 2014, I saw the difficulties that they were having, trying to break into the field and where to get started and what are the technologies that they should be looking into and focusing on to get started in this field and you know, what, just what options do they have. And there was a lot of confusion around that. And especially at that time, in 2014, if you looked out on YouTube, like everything was about coding and developers and like that's all you really saw and you never saw anybody that was really focused on it as a whole, you know, you saw some. Yeah. Like very focused channels on very specific technologies and things like that. But there wasn't any thing out there that was like, Hey, how do I help this new person who has no idea what the heck they're doing? You know? And that's where I kinda, I guess I jumped in and ran with it the best I could, because I just wanted to help people. You know, I just wanted to see them I wanted them to see the light at the end of the tunnel, you know, because there's so many possibilities in this field and it's not as difficult, I think as some people make it out to be, and you know, I come from that where I've heard plenty of people, you know, gatekeeping and all of that. Right. All throughout my years. I mean, you remember like when I was first debating, if I should go to college back in 2001, you know, somebody was like, you don't want to go to college for tech. Like it's oversaturated. And this was 2001. And I listened to that person, you know, like I stopped what I was doing and I was like, yeah, maybe they're right. You know, like this, maybe isn't for me, I still kept doing everything that I was doing on my own, but I was like, I'm not going to go down this path. You know? They were wrong and everybody who says that now is wrong. You know, it's not oversaturated. We have plenty of jobs that need to be filled and we need to recruit the talent that's out there. And there's plenty of people across the world that are more than capable of working in it. They just need that little boost of confidence. And that's all that I hope that I can provide just as I think, you know, that's the same mission for you guys, you know, just let's give these people the confidence. They need to take that next step. Because that next step it's often that first step, you know, it could be the most difficult, but once you get past that, like the possibilities are limitless in this field.
Pat: 4:07
Yeah, no, I agree. I think I, I think you hit it on the head with the first step is usually the largest, the biggest step to take. Right. So, you know, if I feel like there is a lot of people in this space that are sort of lost in. In the soup, if you will, or the thinking about a career of it. And they're just not sure where to start, because even now that the, you know, the talk is, you know, coding dev, it's still it's still a developers world going forward. It just different seems to be in like even me, I've been in the network space for 20 years and it's I'm still, I still get lost in that developer coding. Oh my God. What am I going to do? Sort of thing. So it, I can only imagine what it's like for a new person, whether that's, you know, whether they're right out of college or whether they're thinking of. You know, mid-life career change sort of thing to sort of be like, okay, like where do I start? So do they, you know, do they know they can start at, you know, CBT nuggets or an it pro TV or, you know, at least a start there, or, you know, those communities that are out there. Right. So there's much discourse out there and Twitter has a decent tech space out there as you and I both know. So, you know, I don't know if those people know that those tools are available where you're not necessarily like jumping into the pool with both feet. You're sorta just like dipping your toe in the water and being like, okay yeah, I can hang here because you know, it's a welcoming thing. It's not, you know, it's not so daunting and it's not such a large you know, hill to climb.
Zach: 5:34
Yeah, I mean, I think you're right. And a lot of what you said that people don't realize the resources that are available to them. And they come to YouTube or they turn the podcasts to the, you know, they turn to Twitter to find people who can help, you know, That can be a great thing, right? The fact that we have so many people out here now creating content like this, like you, right? This is fantastic. We didn't have that years ago, even, you know, it's just boomed in the last I mean, since COVID honestly, like things have just exploded in this space, which is fantastic, but people really have to pay attention to what people are saying, and they really have to take notes on what people are saying. They can't take well, you know, they can't take everything that I say as that is a hundred percent fact. And they can't take everything that you say is that's a hundred percent fact all the time. They need to take this information that. There we're sharing with them because like you just said, you have 20 years of experience in this field. I have 20 years of experience in this field. We've both done different things over our careers. I'm sure we have different perspectives that we can share. And that's what people really need to pay attention to when they're getting advice from all these different resources out there, you know, gather that information, gather these different perspectives and find out what of those like align with you personally, because that's where you're ultimately gonna find the most success as aligning your goals. Like even though you're trying to look at somebody else, you know, you're trying to align yourself with what actually matches to you what you are actually interested in and what you actually enjoy. That's where you're going to have the most success. Not by following somebody else's, you know, blueprint to success because their blueprint to success is not your blueprint to success. And people really need to understand.
Pat: 7:21
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. I feel like there's a lot of competition out there in the social media space like that. Last week we talked to Lexi of art of network engineering fame, and she was fantastic. And so we sort of talked about that a little bit too, is you only see the good things on social media. You never see the fields, you never see that, you know, it took you three times for the CCNA sort of thing. Like it always is oh, here, look, I got the shiny piece of paper. Cause I think that needs to be a realistic expectation too. Like not everything is, you know, sunshines and rainbows and unicorns over here. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of stress, especially in the cybersecurity space and you know, things of that nature just there's just hit after hit. It seems nowadays of people trying to, you know, keep bad guys off of you, but you know, it's a stressful place and you're gonna fail. You almost have to embrace that and sort of use that as building blocks or pillars to pull yourself back up and, you know, use that as a pillar to the next level. Cause if it, if everything comes easy to you, there's. Challenge and you're right. It's sorta, it does get monotonous and boring at that point. And you're like, ah, well, this is easy. I'm just going to keep going through it. Like, where's the fun in that? Where's the challenge in that? I, you know, cause I feel like it's motivated me because I've failed at certifications in the past to try them again. And then once I get them, it's even sweeter because I know what it's like to fail at, you know, in previous steps,
Zach: 8:44
A hundred percent. I failed my security. Plus the first time I took it. And that was the best thing that ever happened to me.
Pat: 8:49
there you go.
Zach: 8:50
like it was the most it was like the most just like realistic thing that could happen to me. Right. It was just like a slap in the face that I needed to say, Hey, this is reality. And this is what it is. And Hey, guess what, Zach, you didn't try hard enough, you know? And it's I respect that, you know, like I needed that it was humbling to me and it made me try so much harder. So when I went back and took the security, plus I passed it, you know, like as just I was determined from that point. And you brought up a great point too, of like people don't share their failures on social media. They always see the good stuff you guys talked about that last week. But like I shared my failure immediately. Like I have shared my failures probably more than anybody, like more than a lot of the other creators that I've ever followed half. Like I shared my stories of, you know, battling mental illness. A lot very often. And I've gotten so much hate for just being honest and being real about my failure with security plus, or with talking about mental illness. So it's just like this double-edged sword. And at the end of the day I don't care because this is real life and I'm going to share real life with you because somebody out there is experiencing this exact same thing and they need to see it because the more we hide it and put it, push it away, like it's just pushing us further and further into the past.
Pat: 10:11
Yeah. You're not helping
Zach: 10:12
doing nothing for us. You know, more people will need to watch star Trek.
Pat: 10:16
There you go. Look at
Zach: 10:17
something I'm on right lately it helped more people.
Pat: 10:20
Yeah, no I agree. I think there's a big space there to sort of be real with yourself and not live in this, you know, rose colored glasses world that sometimes can be social media, right? It's like you have, like Dave Chappelle said Twitter, isn't a real place. You know,
Zach: 10:35
Yeah, social media sucks. I mean, honestly, social media is the worst thing ever. Yeah.
Pat: 10:40
Broken. It really is.
Zach: 10:43
so many people, you use that as a way to compare themselves to others. And I think so many people utilize it just that they're using that whatever platform. And they're not even realizing that as they're scrolling through, they're seeing all these amazing things, how that affects them, you know, like It actually affects you in a very negative way. hate, I hot, gosh, I hate that you go probably go on a tirade on that forever. But the point of this is you can't always look at what other people are doing and compare that to yourselves and people in it. And this could go for many different careers when people who are just starting off in it, they really y'all really have to understand that, like you cannot compare yourself to somebody else. And if you're trying to get your first job or you're trying to get your first certification, just because somebody else got that job before you did, or they were able to study and get that certification before you did, does not mean that anything negative to you and what you're doing, you have to understand that first and foremost, everybody is. different and we all do things differently, please, for the love of everything, don't compare yourself to anything that you're seeing on social media, as any type of, you know, like way to measure your success, because you're going to have a bad time.
Pat: 12:01
Yeah. I mean, everybody's journey is different, right? It's like your fingerprint. No, two, no two fingerprints are alike. So yeah. You know, and to quote my, to, to quote our good friends over at the art of network engineering podcast, it is about the journey, right? It's all about the journey as far as getting from breaking in and finally getting that, oh man, I got that first job. This is awesome. Like I'm on top of the world, you know, that sort of thing. Like it's about the journey that a got you there and B that you're going to continue to your next job and throughout your career. So it is everybody's different. Embrace it. It is what it is. And you look to improve it where you can and you know what you can control. That's another thing too. Like I like early on in my career I stressed about things that I couldn't control and it used to make me so angry. I'm like, no, these managers, they don't know what the Dylan You can't control that. The only thing you can control is the amount of work you put into your career. Like obviously your day job and whatnot, and then trying to get better at it. So either that's by way of certification or, you know, something of that nature to get you to, you know, another job or the next run or whatever, your sort of you know, whatever you're striving towards and not everyone wants to strive towards the next runner constantly be on that hamster wheel. And that's totally fine. It just depends on the type of person you are and what your goals are, but I used to get hung up so bad and my wife yells at me. Or did yell at me. I don't stress about anymore, but I used to get so upset that things that I couldn't control. And then it's like the only person that's getting it riled up is be like the manager who just told me to do something or, you know, it seems like he's talking to his wazoo. He don't care he's at home and doing his thing. So, you know, it's take a step back, you know, look at it from a 50,000 foot view. And the only thing you can do is change your change, your surroundings in that aspect, but you can't get caught up on the things that are outside of your, you know, outside of your patrol.
Zach: 13:53
yeah. I mean cash when you're just starting out, there's so much information and everything being thrown your way on top of like how somebody else is managing you or how things are run in the environment that like you may not necessarily agree with or, you know, can cope with well, so it's yeah, getting started and it can be difficult on so many different fronts and it is important just to take a step back and look at it from that 50,000 foot view. Because if you don't, you will burn out real quick and you'll stress yourself out real quick. And as your wife, probably that you're like, C's, you know, like your spouse sees us in you and that's not good. You don't want to bring that stuff home with you. Like you never want that.
Pat: 14:36
not worth it.
Zach: 14:37
yeah. That's ultimately at the end of the day yeah, you have to be able to learn to turn some things off, for sure. Especially when you walk out of the. Turn it off and that's even more difficult now since COVID because like I work from home, but now Yeah. So like I have my space and it's just okay, when I get out of this space, when I walk away from here, that's home. But
Pat: 14:59
Leave it at the door.
Zach: 14:59
and that's it.
Pat: 15:00
That's it brother. I like it.
Zach: 15:02
It was
Pat: 15:02
I like it. So, so turn back to the YouTube channel. There's Zack. So are you streaming now a couple of times a week? What's your what's the vision? Do you have a vision for what it is moving forward or
Zach: 15:14
I honestly got so burnt out on YouTube.
Pat: 15:17
really?
Zach: 15:18
Yeah, like doing YouTube. Full-time like that killed me
Pat: 15:21
I bet
Zach: 15:22
ways. And so now, like it took it like, honestly and I said this even reasonably. All of the, every single video that I probably produced in 20, 20 and into 2021 is probably like the worst videos like I've ever done. And the worst I've ever felt, recording videos, because I just, I felt what I, whatever so, getting what I'm getting at is now I'm like finally starting to feel good about coming back to that. Which makes me feel like, Yeah. it makes me feel good. It was such a driver towards revenue for me for so long. And I only saw it as okay, this, you know, because I it turned into that, which is never, what I wanted is to be, I never wanted, I never started the YouTube channel to make money. First of all that's not like what I wanted it to be, but that's what it spiraled into. And when it became something like. yeah, I started to hate it. I started to just despise it and it's just not what I wanted. So now I'm just finally, it's like starting to look at it as okay, this is that's my baby. And I created that baby and I need to nurture that baby and I need to help people. And that's, so now it's just I'm going to do whatever the heck I feel like doing that's enjoyable to me and, you know, That's going to help somebody maybe. Cool. It's that's great. I don't have to worry about whether, you know, some company is going to pay me to do a video or, you know, whatever. Like I just don't care anymore. So I'm also just going to be a lot more blunt and abrasive. Not that I never was before. Cause I have always been that type of person, but I don't have to worry about what people, you know, or like what companies are going to pay me and what companies aren't going to pay me because of what I say at the end of the day, I want to help somebody. So a lot of what I say would upset companies probably
Pat: 17:01
Yeah, no,
Zach: 17:02
that's what I'm getting at. You know, like I I just want to help people, man. Like a lot of times, like it's just real, like true factual advice that some people don't like Erin.
Pat: 17:14
yeah, no, the truth sometimes is uncomfortable and messy and, but it is what it is. It is what it is. So, I guess my next question then, as far as the channel goes is it more live stream? Is it more prerecorded? Is it like an AMA style?
Zach: 17:29
It's a mix, I guess, you know, so like every Tuesday, like I have to take my daughter to swim practice. So I, you know, it was just like, I'm just going to do a live stream because like I could go in there and watch, but there's, you know, there's 70 kids or something in her swim class. I don't, I can't tell who she is from where you have to sit, you know, and there's that many kids. So like I'll just sit in the car and do a live stream, you know, like, why not sit there and answer questions. So that's been my thing every Tuesday for the past couple of weeks now. And it's been so much fun just to be able to connect with people again and interact with them and answer their questions. And oftentimes it's answering the same question over and over again, but that's all right, because it's helping somebody.
Pat: 18:07
somebody. Yeah,
Zach: 18:08
Yeah, but like today I put it out like a prerecorded video, you know, that it. did, it was about a scripting and automation. So, Yeah. there'll be definitely just a mix of things. And whenever I feel like doing something and they'll, there'll be something, I guess, you know, I can't make a commitment to it. I don't think I'll ever make a commitment to it. Career questions ever again in the way that I w had before, because it honestly, like it is a soul sucking adventure that I never want to experience again I don't want to sit there and worry about feeding an algorithm ever again, like that's just 100% honest,
Pat: 18:42
Yeah, no, that's I hear ya. It's a tough climb out there and there's a lot of people in the content creation space, because it is so easy to create content nowadays. It's oh yeah. Microphone or whatever. And a speaker you're good in a platform and you're good to go. So now I get it takes a grind. It really does.
Zach: 19:00
It's it was like I was selling out almost, you know, like that's kinda how I felt towards the end of it. And it's just that's not why I wanted to do this. And it was such a, it was a painful thing for me.
Pat: 19:09
Loses purpose. Yeah,
Zach: 19:11
yeah.
Pat: 19:11
I get it.
Zach: 19:12
I always want to be, as I, as genuine and as authentic as I possibly can be. So that's just always what I'll try to go with, I guess, you know?
Pat: 19:19
Yeah. So, so from your audience there, Zack, who who are you seeing most? Is it more college kids or is it more mid-career like change folk,
Zach: 19:29
Yeah. It's all everything. The biggest, I think that would be, if I were to actually look at my analytics the biggest group of people is like 24 to 35 or whatever. And then from there it's people older than that. And then it goes to the like 18 year olds or whatever, 18 to 24 or whatever,
Pat: 19:45
Are you surprised by that as far as like the age demographic of no. Okay.
Zach: 19:50
not at all. I guess not any more, maybe at first, maybe like a few years ago, I maybe was surprised by that because I figured like more kids were more adapt to YouTube. Right. And they would be the ones like looking for this information. But I was, I guess I was surprised, like the amount of older people who were coming to the channel, looking for advice and this like older people in their fifties and their sixties, like, I'm just like, this is crazy. And then it definitely had started to reflect more in the analytics of the channel. For sure.
Pat: 20:21
that's interesting.
Zach: 20:22
but it's, you know, my channel, like the channel is so like very niche though in the sense that like you're out there you decide that you want to get into it and you start looking for information and then you stumble across my channel. you know, whatever, I answer your question and then you're like, oh, this is cool. This is great, whatever. And then you watch 10 videos. And this is honestly, how it works probably 95% of the time with people who come to my channel and subscribe, they watch those 10 videos and they get pretty much everything that they need to know to take that next step, which is like going to CBT nuggets or it pro TV or TCM security, or, you know, like getting just those skills and everything else that they need. right. I tell you how to get started from the beginning And for others, that's going after your A-plus or like CCNA or whatever. And then here's how you go through an interview. Here's how you do really good at interviewing. Here's how you like prep your resume, you know, so it's just It's like a one-stop shop within 10 videos. Like you got this information you're ready to go. So it's constantly like new people coming to my channel as is ultimately like what I was getting at. I don't have a lot of like people who have been subscribed for years that come back and watch my videos constantly because at this point, like they're successfully working in the field, you know, I do have those people coming back you know, Just today, like somebody commented dude, I haven't watched your channel in three years. Like I have now like a SIS admin or whatever it was, he studied and you know, all because of you, it's just oh my gosh, like that's
Pat: 21:51
Yeah.
Zach: 21:51
Yeah. It's is just amazing, you know, but That's I, you know, I've since 2014, I mean, I've, the channel has had like over what, 15 million views or something now. So that's a lot of people that I've, you know, I've
Pat: 22:04
People have
Zach: 22:05
hopefully change their lives for good, you know,
Pat: 22:09
No, I get it, man. That's. That's the dream right there. Right. You know, it's just helping as many people as you can, but I'm surprised at that. I'm surprised at that age bracket. Yeah. Cause one of the things in podcasting is full disclosure is they tell you you know, the more niche you are the better, like the more focused you are in a topic the better and know your audience. And I thought oh, people try to get an it like they're either college kids, you know, 17, 18, 19, somewhere in there. W you know, that sort of thing, early twenties, or they're, you know, the 40, 45 year old trying to, you know, change their careers from, you know, doing whatever they were doing. Like I thought that was the two. Brackets, you know, the, what you just said, you know, and I'm comparing ours. Cause we're very similar in the space where we're trying to help. When you said 24 to 30 or whatever, it was 32. It's like that, that, that was a little surprising to me. I
Zach: 23:03
They I pulled it, up for you right now. So it's actually, so 25 to 34 year olds is 40% of my
Pat: 23:09
There you go.
Zach: 23:10
And then actually next is 18 to 24 year olds or 25%, and then 35 to 44 or 18%, 45 to 54 or 7.9%. 55 to 64 is 3.8% and 65 and older is three, 3.1%.
Pat: 23:26
there you go.
Zach: 23:27
Not like that. percentage. Even though, like I had a good in all those details, but like 3% of my traffic are people who are 65 years or older. So 3% of my traffic I guess on a monthly basis. What's let's see. I'm just curious on this now. I'm sorry. This is, I dunno, I'm sorry. This is like really interesting
Pat: 23:47
cool. This is great. I love it. I'm interested to know you have this buildup.
Zach: 23:53
Yeah. So that's 4,600 people a month who are over the age of 65,
Pat: 23:58
Wow.
Zach: 23:59
who are watching my videos. So that's crazy to me, like 4,500 people who are 65 and older. What the heck are You doing? you know, like you want to get into it and you're that old. All right. Let's go let's rock and roll. I'm all for it. But That's wild.
Pat: 24:16
Yeah. that is pretty wild. I agree. Yeah that's an interesting interesting factor that you have your your your audience is so diverse and, you know, spread out like that. That's a cool number. I'm digging it. I really am.
Zach: 24:27
Yeah. And then 17% of my audience is female, which is actually pretty high for tech.
Pat: 24:32
well, that's the thing that that, that's a good point. I feel like now in the last couple of years, like there's a major push for more females in the tech space. And I feel like we've had a couple of people on females on, so we've had deer footmen, CCS CCA by 30. She's been on love her shout out.
Zach: 24:50
Her too. she's awesome.
Pat: 24:51
great. Track of pacer, obviously. Last week I had a former coworker of mine. She's a senior manager of applications. Heidi, highly shout out to her you know, and I've worked with a couple of females. You know, 20 year ish career. But you know, it's definitely expanding in that space and it's definitely a male dominated space. That's no secret to anybody, but you know, I feel like, I think it's a good thing moving forward with more females in that aspect of technology. Cause I mean, tech, you know, it is for everybody, it just, it seems to have, you know, sort of lean towards the male, you know, a male dominant field and I would think you would agree in the last couple of years that, you know, there's a push to get more females involved in at all levels, right? So either texts management and across all specialties as well,
Zach: 25:40
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I want to say though it was honestly, it's been a, quite a surprise to me within the last, like probably five, six years, like how drastic the numbers were and that as I was seeing them on my channel, even, you know, like I don't understanding this because throughout my entire career, I've always worked with women and it.
Pat: 26:00
Oh, wow.
Zach: 26:01
So it was, it's always been something that's this is normal to me. You know, I always knew even at the time yes, we're, it's a more male dominated field for sure. But I guess I just didn't I never realized like how drastic it was, you know, and seeing like numbers like this, it's wow, that is surprising. And it's unfortunate because I would, I encourage everybody to do this and I w I don't want anybody to think that they can't do this for any which reason or another, and I've heard so many terrible stories that literally break my heart. And it's just it's like the most absurd thing to me at this point, it's 20, 22. And I don't know why we're like, you know, still going through. Stuff like this and just making other people's lives miserable for no freaking reason. Like women are a hundred percent capable of doing this much better than men, even in many aspects. Right. It's just it's just, I dunno, I've had women managers and they were been the best people I've ever worked with in my life. So I would never, you know, I just, I don't know, you know what I mean? Like I just,
Pat: 27:03
just wasn't your thing or what you didn't have that perspective of it because you just thought it was a normal
Zach: 27:08
And now that I see it, it's I hate it and I feel so terrible, you know? So it's just like anything that I could do. I will always support anybody who wants to work in this field no matter who you are, you know, if you want my support, you got my support. I promise you that a hundred percent.
Pat: 27:23
Yeah, I agree. I've had some women bosses and I've had one woman coworker and she was phenomenal. But you know, it's mainly been male dominated. So I'm curious to see over the next couple of years with those you know, what those numbers look like as far as. Yeah, what percentage and you'll get more women into it. And I have two daughters and, you know, who knows what they'll do, but, you know, you know, exposing them to tech you know, reasonable tech, I should say, not plopping them in front of an iPad or a TV, but, you know, but just to pacify it, but like actual tech, you know, I'd love to, I'd love to see them. It's been a very good field to me and I would, you know, I would want the same for them. So it totally makes sense that nor women are driving towards it. And from the couple of people that we've talked to they seem to get in it at an early age or Idera doing her thing with the the Cisco networking academy, just like me. That's the way I got in. That's the way I broke in high school, it was built in high school. You know, we took a w you know, we were tech kids sort of vocational. Do you feel like the earlier the better their Zack for not just for women, but for anybody in tech, is it the earlier the better, or is it. I had to be interested in it and take a flyer on it sort of thing.
Zach: 28:33
Nah, look at the numbers that I just showed you, man. I'm like you got, I got people 65 and older are still looking to get into attack. Right. So, no, I
Pat: 28:42
It's all over.
Zach: 28:44
anybody could do it. It doesn't matter how old you are. You don't have to get into it at a young age. You know, like we were just having this conversation. I forgot who I was having this conversation with. Honestly, how. You would think like a lot of the kids that are growing up nowadays are, or would be so much more advanced when they enter the workforce, because they've grown up with technology, but it's not actually the case because they've grown up with the technology that does not do, doesn't help them in the workforce. Right. Like they're in school using like Google Chromebooks and no enterprise. You know, like you go into an enterprise, they're not using Google Chromebooks. Right. Like different. Right. That's just one thing. Right. Or you're attached to an iPad all day, which like that doesn't do anything for you either. Right. So it's just like going on with there's just a lot of, yeah. There's issues, I guess, with the way the technology is being just introduced to. Everybody at a young age at this point and how we're supposed to utilize that going forward. I don't know. I don't think we know how that looks. Right. Because you know, a lot of times, even in like high school, like they've taken out like computer classes and typing classes and things like that. When in reality, like those are actually probably still. Good courses that kids should have, because that's like fundamental, like just fundamental things. Like you should know how to type, not on a fricking phone and that's all kids are attached to nowadays or a phone or an iPad. Right. So it's just you know, they're not getting that. I remember, you know, being in like what eighth grade learning, like word processing. Right. I don't know if that they're doing that now. I hope that they are doing that now. Hopefully it's not all done through an iPad or a Chromebook, and they're actually utilizing more technology that is seen out there in the real world on a day to day basis. You know, that's being used if that makes sense. Especially for somebody who's trying to get into Tech. where vocational schools are phenomenal in that aspect. So hopefully you know, we at least introduce more vocational schools to the mix of things to, to help with this introduction at a younger age, you know, sorry, I went on a tirade maybe
Pat: 30:52
it's all good stuff. It's not really. It is. I agree. I think it's, I think there is a balance there. I think kids, they have the tech, but they don't have the right tech, if that makes sense. They're like they have the right tech. They're not using it in the way. It's meant to be used, I guess is what I'm trying to say. But like case in point, my wife's a teacher here in Pennsylvania and she teaches second grade, so she's elementary, but like they don't teach head writing or like cursive anymore. It's not even part of the curriculum. And I sorta get it, but then I sorta don't like, everything is done electronically now, but I feel, I still feel that's like a core skill that needs to be like these to be taught or, you know what I mean? Like I, I dunno, maybe it's just me, but yeah. I feel like there's a whole bunch of tools out there and people like they played candy crush and, you know, Wordle, I dunno, it just feels like a gross misuse of what could be, if that makes
Zach: 31:49
I agree. No, I agree. A hundred percent, man. Interesting. That's all I can say. So it's you, I mean, you got two daughters. I have two daughters as well. I have two sons also, but it's just I have not done anything to say this is technology. This is, you know, like these, this is all the fun stuff that you could do with It this is. what daddy does, you know, if they want to know that, like they, they have that idea and I'll let them come to me with it. You know? I don't know how else to do it. The people who are interested in it will gravitate to it in some way. I did it as a kid. And you did it as a kid, right. Like I was taking apart my Nintendo when I was like seven years old, you know, it's like, what the hell is inside this thing? Right. I'm going to figure it out. No, it's Just interesting to me, you know? So yeah. Like the kids who like that stuff will definitely go for
Pat: 32:36
gravitate towards it. Yeah.
Zach: 32:37
13 to seven year olds are 1% of my viewers. So,
Pat: 32:41
There you go look at that,
Zach: 32:43
there's a lot of times, like I got 13, 14 year old kids Hey, I want to learn it. What do I do?
Pat: 32:49
right?
Zach: 32:49
here you go. Here's the tools, man. You're on YouTube. So like you're already one step ahead of me. Like I was when I was your age.
Pat: 32:57
Yeah. Let's talk about that a little bit. Cause you know, I feel like we started it at the same roughly the same years. But like when I was trying to come up and do my CCNA and CCNP and stuff and heavily in the Cisco world. Cause that's what it was at the time. Like Cisco was the IBM of the networking world and to some aspects,
Zach: 33:14
they still are.
Pat: 33:14
It still is right. It still is. I'll be it. There's a lot more competition now. You know, but it still is
Zach: 33:19
Yeah. It's is there still competition though? Cause the, I only ever hear a Cisco. No, no offense. The nerd, the art and network engineering over
Pat: 33:27
No.
Zach: 33:27
Juniper,
Pat: 33:28
Those guys are great. Yeah. Shout out to Andy. He's down Juniper, but no I so get back to the the amount of things and education that was available that not even talking free education, Zac, I'm just talking education that was out there. It was, it, there wasn't a whole lot out there. There was CBT nuggets was out there and I think was a little young yet. They were sort of on there,
Zach: 33:49
know. What are you talking, man? like, I got started, like when I think about when I got started, it was like literally 1999, 2000. That's when I started to get into figuring all this Stuff.
Pat: 33:58
Stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, and like going through my Cisco services, stuff like that. Yeah. You'd have to order like labs and gear on eBay and hope and pray that it like showed up and it worked and, you know, the licensing
Zach: 34:11
back when I started we were asking Jeeves, man, Google
Pat: 34:13
there you go. Oh, Google wasn't even a thing.
Zach: 34:15
Wasn't a
Pat: 34:16
So you're probably.
Zach: 34:17
it was,
Pat: 34:18
Three or four years ahead of me then. Cause I started in like early, early 2000. So yeah. So yeah, it's the same thing. But comparing it now, right. Comparing it to then, or comparing it to now the two timeframes is completely different. Like I wish I had a quarter of the shit that's out there now, even for free. I wish I had I would even pay for it. Like it just didn't exist. When we were coming up, it was like, it was rough.
Zach: 34:46
Yeah. I would just I'm sorry. I'm like going back and like thinking about it and it's just I could just remember Everything that I learned was just through over like AOL instant messenger or whatever, because it was just like, I'm calm, I'm having a conversation with this person. Who's teaching me everything that they know and I'm doing the same. Like I'm giving them everything that I know. That's how I learned, you know? And like I started doing web development at first. So what I would do is just go to websites and I would, view the source so that I could understand like, what all these, like different tables are doing. What does this HTML code do? So I'd copy their source. And I would essentially steal their source code and put it on my website so that I could break it and figure out like how this works, you know, like that's how I learned.
Pat: 35:29
Yep. Yeah. It's insane. The amount that was that's available now, but Dede had a good point a few weeks ago. He was like, well, nobody wants it now because it's all. So nobody's got to work for it. It's just well, that's a good point. If it's so much out there, you're like, man, I guess one of those, it's a good point, but man, I wish I had some of that stuff that was out there today. That's out there today that, you know, when I was coming up, cause that'd be a lot further in my career than what I am when I am now.
Zach: 35:56
hundred percent man. Like the people coming up now, I, they haven't made, I mean, I guess I feel like maybe the people now might have a little bit more difficult time breaking into the field than even 10 years ago. For sure. That's for sure. But as far as like actually learning everything, like they got, it. made man, if I wouldn't remember when I wanted to learn PHP, like I had to go to Barnes and noble and buy a book for PHP. I had to read a book and I hate reading. I still hate
Pat: 36:26
I can't
Zach: 36:26
you know? So it's
Pat: 36:27
I'm a video
Zach: 36:28
it pro TV is like that. That's my stuff right there. That's my jam.
Pat: 36:32
That's it? No, that's a good point. You know? I'm a video guy through and through. I just, I can't read my ADHD just doesn't work well with the
Zach: 36:41
that's why I'm the same
Pat: 36:42
Oh, that's drives me crazy. Yeah. I need plural site, CBT nuggets. It pro TV. Even usually there's just so much out there. It's just insanity. You know, certify you like all that stuff is just man, I wish I had a fraction of that when I was coming up. Cause that would have been awesome.
Zach: 37:00
Yeah. It's a, sir, the amount of material that's out there and even like free and like YouTube, just the amount of people that are putting out, you know,
Pat: 37:08
yeah. So,
Zach: 37:10
quality content. That's like helpful For, people that they can learn all of these great things
Pat: 37:17
or nothing.
Zach: 37:18
for
Pat: 37:18
that I'm not bitter at all, but nothing.
Zach: 37:21
Right, right. Free dollars.
Pat: 37:24
So let's talk about that free stuff. Do you have a free, do you have a, do you have a couple people or a couple things that are putting out like good free content? That's like your go-to like, do you have a list like that? Does that exist or
Zach: 37:38
That. I mean, I recommend people go to you know, like Capitec it support he's on YouTube. He's got a great channel that like, this is for people who are just trying to break in it. So help desk, his channel is absolutely phenomenal for this. And then like job Skillshare. He's another one up that same alley. Those are like, those two are the best free resources for like entry level channels. For sure.
Pat: 38:04
cool. I have to check those out. I've
Zach: 38:06
I don't know.
Pat: 38:07
Okay. Now that's good. I've heard about them both. I just haven't checked them out. That's good to know.
Zach: 38:13
Yeah, they go they do a lot of tutorials, a lot of tutorials and it's all like very practical. So that's yeah. If I had more time, like that's the type of stuff I would do.
Pat: 38:23
Yeah, no I hear you. And YouTube is great. The other one I liked that I've stumbled upon a couple of his videos and for a hot minute there, I was studying the security plus and then put it down. But professor Messer is another good one.
Zach: 38:33
Oh yeah. Sorry, professor Nasr, for sure. Yeah. All his, he does what? The comp Tia Trifacta so eight plus net plus security plus all for free. And you can't beat it. Oh, this is the driest material of your life. So you have to put it on two times speed, but when you put it on two times, speed, it's actually enjoyable. So make sure you do that, but it's legit. It's free and He's good. Like fresh semesters, a great. guy. I love that.
Pat: 38:55
Yeah. Hot tip from Zack two times. Speed. You'll get through it.
Zach: 38:58
Doll for sure. I got a two times speed everything and that's because of my add ma'am like, I just can't do it. I don't got time for that.
Pat: 39:05
Yeah. And there's other guys in the space too, like David Bohm ball and network Chuck and all those guys, like they have some decent free stuff out there. There was a Python for network engineers course on Udemy that David Bond ball did that I actually bought. It was pretty, it was affordable. It was like 20 bucks. That was really good. But yeah, I mean, there's the amount of free and low cost stuff out there is just, whew. It's just insane. And I, yeah, I can't recommend it enough for folks that are trying to break into the into the industry from a technical perspective. Th the other thing I think too, is I think we try at this show to do the tangible end, but also do the other end of that. Like the we try to think as a person trying to break in, so. What's your resume look like your like internships or you know, references and things of that nature. Do you delve into that at all, Zack on, on your channel or at all over your career? As far as like a resume thing or
Zach: 39:58
for sure. So I have videos that cover how to you know, spruce up your resume, how to get your resume started from scratch, or just tips that you, things you should put on there. But then I go over like interview tips. Like I have an entire video that I just did, I think like last year, or it was like, here's like pro tips, pro interview tips, and I walk you through what you need to do before the interview even starts to like during the interview process too, like what you do after the interview. And it includes these are questions that you should be asking during the interview. You know, things to look out for things like that.
Pat: 40:28
No, I think it's I think it's great. I think you have to focus on the soft skills or the non-technical pieces. It's just as much as the technical piece, because I feel like in the last couple of years, the mantra out there is, you know, the soft skills. The incu skills are better than the IQ skills. If you will, like you can teach somebody tech, but you can't teach somebody how not to be an a-hole, you know, that's
Zach: 40:57
Yep. Oh, it's a hundred percent man. Oh, for sure. Soft skills are so much more valuable than the tech skills in so many aspects because everything tech related can be taught. And especially when it comes to an entry-level job, it's just like the most important thing that you're looking for. An entry-level job is customer service skills because all of those tech skills can be taught to you on the job very easily, you know, so yeah, for sure. I talk about soft skills a lot. Cause it's very important
Pat: 41:23
super important. I think people underestimate how important it is in today's world to like, you know, like I said, tech can be taught it's, you know, how do you talk to. Customer on the other end, cause you know, at a help desk level, a level one, and in some companies, depending on structure level two and hell some companies level three there you still talking to, you're still talking to end users at some point. Like now obviously the higher.
Zach: 41:50
From beginning to end, you are at every point in your career, you well may have to talk to an end-user. It does not matter what position you are in like it. Yeah. So you have to get used to that. And the people are gonna ask well, how do I get soft skills? And it's I always tell people like, go work at, McDonald's go work at like the hardware store. go put yourself in front of people. Yeah. I mean, nowadays it probably be easier because you could probably find like a call center type of job, remote and work like a few hours a night. But that's like very important because you're putting yourself in front of somebody and you have to learn how to talk with them and learn how to interact in multitudes of situations, which is like exactly what you're looking for. And it helped us position. So that's my pro tips, my pro advice, for sure.
Pat: 42:37
Case in point, I worked at a local cable company up here that was one of their very first tech support reps for cable modems and like 2003, 2004 go, you know, go to college at the time and working part-time as well. And I worked every shift known to man you know, they had an early shift, they had a mid shift and then they had a three to 11, you know, 10 to, you know, 10 to 10 or whatever, or to two to eight, you know, I w I worked every oddball shift. And at that time, the cable, one of the stuff was just exploding. Like the home keto bars and stuff, they were just absolutely broadband was just getting off the ground and it was fast and furious and and. Properly staffed from like a field service perspective. So when stuff broke, like at some points, like it was like a two to three week wait for the cable guy to come and fix your internet. And you had to find a, the leg, tell this customer who like, they all threw the same light at you. Right. They're like, I run, I work out of my house. I have a home business here and I'm like, like the pay for a business account, if not, sorry, Charlie, you know, it's one of those things, but like you learned quickly to talk to these people on how to talk them off the ledge or massage them into doing what you want them to do, but not talking to them. Like they're an idiot, you know, that sort of thing. So
Zach: 43:58
it's funny that you say all that then like you're asking are you paying for a business account? Because my experience, when I first got cable is exactly why I pay for a business account now because of having so many issues way back in the day. And it, was just always well, if you had a business account, you'd have somebody out the same day and this just I need my internet, you know?
Pat: 44:20
yup. Yeah. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life pay for that business account that, but It's
Zach: 44:26
write off at this point, so it's all good.
Pat: 44:28
It's so funny to see how far things have come like in that in the 20 years space you know, like when I was working the tech support and stuff, like Facebook didn't exist. Like none of that existed. It was like, that was like the tail end of AOL instant messenger. And and then Facebook came in like 2005
Zach: 44:47
MySpace in 2004. I
Pat: 44:49
was big, you know, that was ad like they just like, I dunno, you just, they couldn't see the future fast enough back in those days of now. Holy shit. We have people dancing on tic-tac and you know, and Instagram and Twitter, all that stuff. Wasn't even the thing. It's just, it's unreal. How fast the world moves in that
Zach: 45:08
Iffy. Yeah. 20 years ago, I never could have imagined doing this in this quality. Right now, you know, like we just watching streaming a video. God, I remember w the first time I tried to download an MP3, which was like a three Meg file, took six hours, you know, that was on like 56 K modem. Right. You know, so I remember when I first got cable and it took three minutes to download the three Meg file. And I was like, Oh this is the greatest day of my life. And, you know
Pat: 45:34
yep. Yeah. It's just it's so crazy. How fast things move and that's the other thing too you know, being in an it career, you just the only constant thing is change really mean. If you look at it, it's just stuff moves so quick. And I've said this a million times. I'm going to say it again. If you're. Studying for the next thing. You're not looking in the immediate future. You're falling behind th there is no standing still because you're going to get eaten. It just it's just how fast the hamster wheel goes. It's not right or wrong. It's just the way it is. And so you're always should be looking for that next rung of the ladder, whether, you know, whether it's your age, plus your end, plus your SAC plus, or the CCNA, or, you know, any of those types of deals, our VCP, right? The VMware world, you know, we've talked to the last couple of last couple of folks on the podcast cloud is absolutely fricking taken off AWS and Azure. And it just it's endless. It's absolutely endless AI is that they haven't even scratched the surface of AI yet. That's some insane shit right there. That's whew. But like you have to be prepared. To be constantly moving or else you're just, you're gonna, you're gonna be eaten or burnout. What are the two
Zach: 46:48
For sure. I say the same thing to people, man. The tech is one of those fields. You always have to be learning and that's just the nature of it, right. There's no getting around that. That's just the way it goes because tech just evolves constantly. And you know, so many times I get people like where do you see XYZ going in the future? And is cloud going to be big in five years? Is security going to be big in five years? It's man, the cloud could explode tomorrow. I have no freaking idea. Nobody knows, you know, like what happens if there's just like a huge breach and the next three years that just makes cloud like completely irrelevant. Not that is ever going to happen. I'm just saying you don't know. I don't know. You know? So it's just it's so hard to judge these things, you know? And you just like it's I don't know. It's so Yeah. It's a hard thing, man, because it just, technology just changes constantly.
Pat: 47:38
yeah it's a moving dartboard and you're standing there with one eye shut, try to hit the dark board. It's just that. Yeah. You just gotta be prepared for it. And the other thing I wanted to to hit on too is your place of employment TCM. I hear some super good things about TCM and he's and you know, where he's sorta you know, where his driving towards and his content and his his he has a, it's not a bootcamp right attack. It's more of a, just like a course I guess this is what it is like, I've hear, I hear such good things. The courses that he puts out and it's affordable and you know, things of that nature, it's just, it's so insane. But to touch on that a little bit, as far as your experience at TCM and what's going on there,
Zach: 48:21
Yeah, for sure, man. It's the best experience of my life. I guess that's where I could start off with, you know, he, Adams is amazing TCM. Security's amazing. So we have our academy and our academy. We have like 11 courses now you buy them for 30 bucks a piece, or you could buy all access pass, which is 30 bucks a month. So you get access to all of them, you know? We'll have more courses coming out. This year I'm working on a course. Targeted towards entry-level people. So I'm really stoked about that and it's all practical. So what like Heath and TCM security really focus on is we want to teach people the practical side of things, right? Like these are the things that you actually need to know when you're getting into the field. And he does a phenomenal job of that. And these other instructors do an amazing job with that as well. So I mean, he's gained a ton of just recognition just for, you know, the, like just the content that he puts out because it's really good. It's very, you know, very well put together and it's just enjoyable. So that that's I guess the academy part of it. And then, you know, we do pen testing and we just acquired a a Pam company. So privileged access management. We'll be doing that a lot more of that now. So like the whole it's just man, it's just exploded and I'm just sitting here I don't know. So I do the brand management there for TCM security. So it's all like I do all the marketing. So everything was put out on social media as me you know, all the videos and images and stuff like that. I'm creating and doing all that stuff, putting all that stuff together. And just driving people to the site and sharing, sharing it with everybody, you know, getting people aware of it because it's affordable and it's good. And we have the PMP T service certification, which is the practical network penetration test or certification, which, you know, if you compare it to you know, like the OCP or CA similar to, I guess, to the ch in some ways. But again, it's just very practical. It's a very practical certification. That's. It's like those other certifications I mentioned, but nothing like them at the same time. So it's like the most practical, like penetration testing certification. You can get that, you know, shows, Hey, you have the ability to perform the job duties that a penetration tester does.
Pat: 50:25
sweet. That's awesome. So, yeah. So if you're in the cybersecurity game, which in today's world, it's hard to go against cyber being a dead field. Cause it certainly is not
Zach: 50:37
cybersecurity is everybody's responsibility. That's I think everybody should learn the fundamentals of cybersecurity if you're working in any type of environment that utilizes technology like that's just a hundred percent like truth, honesty and all of that. If you're utilizing technology in any type of environment, you should have security fundamentals.
Pat: 51:00
yep.
Zach: 51:01
your responsibility,
Pat: 51:02
I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. So if you're into cyber or you're just looking to be a little more well-rounded. Do your part in the cybersecurity world out there? What's the website? A, is it tcm.com or the cyber mentor.com.
Zach: 51:14
Tcm-suck.com.
Pat: 51:16
Okay.
Zach: 51:17
You can find us cyber, the cyber mentor.com too, that you would just look up Heath Adams or the cyber mentor, and you'll find us or out there look up it, career questions. It'll it'll you'll find your way to TCM to, you know, it's all over.
Pat: 51:31
good deal. Yeah, actually I've been wanting to actually get the past cause that is something that interests me. I just haven't gotten around to it yet, but yes, I've heard very good things about TCM security and cyber mentor, you know, and all that goes with it there. So definitely that is on my radar for the near future.
Zach: 51:51
Awesome.
Pat: 51:51
Cool. Cool. We're getting right around an hour. I know we try to keep it to an hour. You got 24 hours a day and you just spent the last one with us. So we really appreciate it come and hanging and that listened to to us a rant and rave. And hopefully you got some value from this. So Zach man, it's been awesome. Really appreciate your coming in and hanging in and giving us your your 2 cents. And anytime you want to come back, man, there's always a mic for you.
Zach: 52:16
for sure, man. Thank you. man. Let me know. Next time you need somebody.
Pat: 52:19
Sounds good.
Zach: 52:20
available, I'll be here.
Pat: 52:21
Awesome man. That's awesome. That's really cool. So, everybody, thanks again for joining this week of, so you want to be in it, make sure you visit our website. So you want to be in it that calm. You can subscribe to the show on your favorite platform, right? From there, iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, Google podcasts, Castbox literally anywhere or there's a Plains RSS feed there too. So you can do with that, but you wish throw us a rating on iTunes that always helps with their algorithms and getting us to the top of the charts, or at least a little closer to the top of the charts, more ears, more eyes, that sort of thing that never hurts anybody. Or you want to simply tell a friend, right? So word of mouth. I think exactly what group. Works just as good. Maybe not even better. Today's today's so technology connected world. So, yeah, to tell a friend always good way to do that. You can follow us on our socials. They're all on our website or in the show notes. One of the other they're a little clunky to to advertise here, but so we want to be an I t.com. It's all there. You have direct links if you want to. We have a listener survey out there. So, if you listen, and if you like what you hear. What do you want more? Or what do you want less of? There is a survey out there that we're doing. It's still alive. It's a sywbiit.com/survey. And it's, I think there's 10 questions on there. We don't sell it the thing or anything like that. We just collect it. It's completely anonymous too. We don't know who they are. We just aggregate the data and that just helps us treat the show and make sure we're we're doing you guys and gals a service cause he talking to him into a mic. You never quite know how you're coming off. So feedback is always good. So, go and take that discord servers out there to again on our website, but it's a sywbiit.com/discord. There's an invite there. That'll take you right to the discord platform. So, that's it again, Zach. Thanks again. Really appreciate it. You have a chair anytime you want to come back and hang out. Hopefully Dean will be with us next time that you come and we'd get a little deeper conversation, but again, thanks everybody for joining in and we'll see you guys.