Episode 23: Developing a Growth Mindset
In this episode, Lexi steps in for Dean as we talk about developing a growth mindset in terms of your career. We had some really great discussions on what burnout looks like, failing certification exams, and how to rebound and move forward from that disappointment. Join us as we talk some tech and get in the right headspace for a long IT career!
Follow Lexi on Twitch here
Follow Lexi on Twitter here
Check out the survey here
Follow the show on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Discord, and Youtube
Support the show here
Email us here
Like us? Give us a review on Podchaser or Apple Podcasts to let us know!
-
Pat: 0:18
everybody. Welcome back to this week's edition of, So You Wanna Be in IT if you've been here before, You know what we're about? If you are a first-timer, welcome Glad to have you, we're podcasts aimed at those starting out their journey in the vast world of it, we talk about navigating the it world as a beginner, right from how to break in. how to climb, some of those high walls climbing the ladder office politics, getting into management and everything in between. I'm your host, pat, you can find me on Twitter at layer eight packet. That is a new Twitter handle for me as of this week. So layer eight packet on Twitter, and You can find the show on Twitter at @sywbiit, we're pretty active on Twitter. So come say, hello. Dean is actually out this week. I have coerced another. Host to come and hang and talk with me. She is of the Twitter fame @tracketpacer I hope I said that, right? I think
Lexie: 1:18
You got it.
Pat: 1:19
and pacer.
Lexie: 1:20
Just switch them around.
Pat: 1:21
That's it. Lexi Cooper. Hi Lexi. How are you?
Lexie: 1:24
What's going on? I'm doing well. How are you?
Pat: 1:26
I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good. Yeah, Dean's out. He's. He had some stuff to take care of and crazy busy Workday. And we're trying to keep on schedule. And for those of you that don't know my wife and I are having a baby next Thursday. So by the time you hear it, you hear this episode. It will be two days from now. So I'm trying to get as many episodes as we can recorded before that magic day to keep on schedule here. So Lexi is pinch hitting for Dean this week. So, we have some good discussions lined up Lexi that you and I were just talking before we hit the record button and we have some good ones here, so we'll get right to it. So.
Lexie: 2:04
First of all, quick. Congrats on the new baby.
Pat: 2:07
Thank you. Yeah, number in this house, so, yeah, I guess I could, I guess we could tell people it's another girl, so I have two girls. So
Lexie: 2:15
Do you have a
Pat: 2:16
name? Lot of I don't know, for telling people yet, so
Lexie: 2:18
It's okay. It's no
Pat: 2:19
stay tuned. Thenext I tell you, yeah,
Lexie: 2:22
Okay,
Pat: 2:23
not that my wife listens to the podcast, but you know, if it gets out there, I don't
Lexie: 2:27
It's the principle. It's all right. I respect that. Okay. All right.
Pat: 2:30
Yeah, so, a lYeah, so, agen in my house because our dogs are, we have a boy and a female dog, so, yeah, so next Thursday is going to be crazy. So, trying to get as many episodes in as we can. And it's just flexibility for scheduling. So Lexi Thanks for joining us. This is going to be a good discussion. How do you want to tip it off? Depending on, this is kind of your show too. What do you think.
Lexie: 2:50
Oh, boy, you're leaving it up to me. That's that's Let's just, let's talk well, okay. All right. So what were we talking about before we hit record? Right? The, what do we call it? The growth mindset.
Pat: 3:02
growth mindset. Yeah. Yeah. Growth
Lexie: 3:04
dive into that
Pat: 3:05
I feel like that's a lot of different things to a lot of different people and it's not a like, steadfast. Okay. This is, you know, you know, this is what it is. Here's the true definition. I think, like I said, it's a lot of things. So a lot of different people
Lexie: 3:20
so I feel like there's all these trends, like you have trends on, especially like fueled by social media, right? With like, and I'm not calling this negative or positive necessarily. It just seems that there what do we call like, like Trends that, that go on, that people start and growth mindset is something that I've seen a lot of people talk about and I have not paid attention to it. So full disclosure. I just looked it up like five minutes ago as were talking about it, but it,
Pat: 3:48
this show fresh? We
Lexie: 3:49
yeah, I know. Yeah. It's like, a network engineer reacts right. To the growth mindset, Googling that she yeah. So it sounds like to me overall growth mindset in general, the idea is keep moving forward, be proactive about your life and, well, yeah, we'll just leave it at that, like your life, right in general. And so what does that mean for us as it professionals or somebody starting out who wants to get into it. I think that's very relevant actually. And it might be the best the best way to sum up what your attitude should be when you approach, you know, hopping into the text fear, right? You're, everybody knows that in order to be successful in tech, you really have to accept that you're going to be constantly learning and you can't ever really stop or cause because technology evolves. Right. And it's going to leave us behind if we don't keep up with that can get a little overwhelming and the growth mindset, it looks like really actually addresses a lot of that, including like keep learning. But what do you, okay, pat, what do you know about the growth mindset? Is this something that you employ in your life, like in your career?
Pat: 5:03
I have, I don't know. I don't know if I called it growth mindset, but for years, I want to say, I want to say for a good 10 years, I was on the certification hamster wheel and I, it just kept going and going, and I never got off. And eventually that led to burnout. And then eventually that led to be like stepping back and looking at things holistically and going okay. Like I have to have another hobby here. Cause it just. Like all my nights were consumed by studying and trying to get to that next level. It always felt like it was never enough. And I had to go and it's like, okay, tonight I gotta learn BGP. Okay. Tomorrow night I got to learn, you know, I S next week I gotta learn MPLS. And it's how do you learn any of that when you have no time to digest? So, for me, like I said, it was 10 years, a good 10 years on the hamster certification wheel. And, you know, was right. I took my CCNA three times to pass it. Right. And then it took, you know, the CCMP was a little easier for me because at that point in my career? I was doing CCNP level things. And I had friends in good places that sort of pulled back the curtain a little bit. Not that I was working on all of CCMP things all of the time, but like I said, I had good friends and good places that were letting me peek behind the curtain, which allowed me to put two and two together and do it that way and, you know, moving forward and so the CCMP. Too crazy for me, but that's, that's three tests. So, you know, at that time it was three tests. I don't think it's that way anymore, but, it's two tests now. right? Yeah. So, you know, so that was that. And it just feels like, so I feel like I was on a growth mindset, but I just, I didn't call it that at that point, like to me, growth mindset was just, again, moving forward. What's the next rung of the ladder. What's the, what's that next cert that's going to give me that next title, that sort of thing. And then I almost feel like in a certain aspect, and maybe you've gotten to this point in your career Lexi, maybe not. I almost feel like once you hit a certain title that you're just like, Oh okay. Like, I've I like, I'm at the top of the mountain. Like what
Lexie: 7:10
senior blank, right? a senior something. It's
Pat: 7:14
yeah. Like once you hit that senior level, you're like, okay, like, what's next? Because, is it architects next? Or is it like you're a director or a manager or like, and then once you start getting into that level, you're less techy, at least in my experience, in the in the companies that I've been in the director or the manager, you're sort of more managing people rather than technology underneath you. And that's a whole nother ball of wax that's for another podcast at another time. But so to me the growth mindset was constantly learning for that next cert, keep reaching for the sky. But then once you reach that level, you're, you sort of have to shift your mindset of, okay, what can I do now that I'm at the peak of the mountain or the, you know, where I want to be right this second? How do I still, you know, develop my skills? Or how do I my mind sharp? Because stuff changes so fast.
Lexie: 8:06
Well, you know, you mentioned something in there that I want to point out and that's burnout, right? Something I find interesting five to seven minutes of Googling growth mindset, is that there doesn't seem to be a whole lot that addresses burnout, which I think. I think is super important, right? So with the caveat, I guess, as we continue to talk about this, we should keep a caveat out there floating in the, either like you, in order to this is what I think from my experience, my short experience, but I've already experienced some burnout from the cert hamster wheel. you have to take care of yourself in order to keep going. In a mindset like this, right? You have to take care of yourself. You mentioned that you had to like branch out a little bit into something different that wasn't just like studying for something every night. Right? Like before we started talking, you know, before we started the recording, you're showing me some of your non-techie hobbies. Right.
Pat: 9:07
Yep. That's it.
Lexie: 9:08
And that's, I think very important, right? You need to have a way to A lot of people have families, for example, spending time with them obviously is a good way to take care of yourself. But even just taking time to maybe learn something, but something that's fun and does it, there's not the pressure of like, okay, this is also my. And I, if I am not successful at this, then I may not be successful at my job. Like that kind of pressure, I think can relieve a lot of as we talk about this growth mindset within the context of getting into it, being an, it just keep in mind that this can also apply to not just your career, but like your hobbies and, you know, fun things that you do outside of your career to keep yourself going.
Pat: 9:50
Yeah, no I agree. I agree with that.
Lexie: 9:54
But what did you, sorry. Thanks Dean. For letting me take your place. Without having a choice. Yeah, so, so how did you, once you started taking care of like that side of you that needed to recover from the burnout, how did you start feeling? Like, did you feel like you could better address? Like, I need to keep learning, I need to keep doing But maybe at like a more sustainable pace or
Pat: 10:15
yeah. So once I sort of stopped and step back from the 24 7, you know, study wheel you just never feel like you're ever getting anywhere in that realm. You get stuck in this weird space where you're just like, okay, like you're studying, but you're not actually absorbing anything because you're always worried about the next topic or like getting to the next rug and like, like, you're always like, oh, I've got to get to tomorrow. And then tomorrow comes, you're like, oh, I've got to get to tomorrow. And then it's this weird cycle that you just never sort of break and you never quite feel ready enough for it. But, you know, once I step back and be like, okay, look, you know, step back. I put every, I put all the studies away truth, be told full transparency. I failed the CCNA data center tests back in '18. That one I studied for quite a bit, and that was like, okay, I'm ready. Like, like, you know, like how shitty it is when you go into a test, you think you're really ready and then you go in there. and it totally embarrasses you. And you're like, I suck. Like,
Lexie: 11:18
Yep.
Pat: 11:19
like that's how I felt with the CCNA data center exam. It was the CCNA data center exam. And then I actually wanted to take the CCNP security when it was on the old format years ago. And that completely embarrassed me. So now I'm, you know, now going from the CCNA to the CCNP and then failing two tests back to back, that was like a punch in the face. You're like, ah, you know, that kind of thing. So that really played a trick on the old mind going okay. Like I spent all this time sitting at the kitchen table. Mowing through these books and these videos shout out to INE and to go up and bomb, it was like, whew, that was a punch
Lexie: 12:05
So that is kind of something that growth mindset that's sort of like theory of living kind of addresses. I really like this about it because it talks about basically the importance of positive self-esteem right. When you have setbacks, the best way to approach them is actually to think, okay, I haven't done it yet, but I will do it. Right. And that doesn't necessarily mean that if you've, you know, for example, failed a certification exam and you just don't think, you know, that we have a lot of stress. I think we put a lot of emphasis as a community on like, get back on that horse, take that test, you know, take it a million times until you get it right. But like,
Pat: 12:44
Yup.
Lexie: 12:45
Can't do that always, if that's your thing, that's great. But I think that really, what it's all about is that you look at the bright side of things. You learn a lot taking an exam and studying for it, right? There's no question about that. You've learned a lot and maybe it was something you needed to do was fail that test. I know a lot of people who, you know, fail an exam, think about it a little bit. And something happened in their lives that they didn't expect that caused a positive change as a result of them, maybe reflecting on things after failing that exam, or, you know, maybe they got a job offer after failing an exam and they realize, Hey, I don't actually need the certification to be successful. You know, there's all sorts of ways to make something work for you. That might seem like a setback, right? I think that's really great way to look at things. It sounds like you kind of took a step back after those two back-to-back exams. And even though what it felt kind of bad in the moment, you, it allowed you to focus on things that were maybe more important to you, right?
Pat: 13:46
Yeah. I agree. I, so now sort of fast forward just this year, I've started to get back on the certification track, so a took a good three, four years off just to focus on other hobbies I know you guys can't go guys, gals can't see me like, you know, I have other hobbies down here in the basement cause the wife and kids are taking over the rest of the house. So this is the only room I got left. But, this is sorta where I do All my stuff and obviously the podcast and what not. So this is the first time in four years or so that I'm back on the certification track. And I want to do three this year. One's already done Palo Alto PC NSA was done early January. Right. now I'm in the midst of CCNP security the core SCOR exam. And then I want to do the ice specialty, Cisco ice. So that is on the docket. And then maybe if time permits AWS, the SAA,
Lexie: 14:39
Damn. Look at you.
Pat: 14:40
of the year. so
Lexie: 14:41
That's so many certs
Pat: 14:43
it is, it's kind of
Lexie: 14:45
in
Pat: 14:45
and with a new baby? I don't know what the hell. But but I've learned a couple things from my last go rounds with the certs. And I think I think I'm doing well with it this time. So this time I'm only dedicating two nights a week to study the rest of the time is, you know, here on this podcast or, you know, with the kids, you know, that sort of thing. So two nights a week where I get there's no more of this. Oh my God. I gotta get to the next chapter and that just is a never ending cycle. So two nights a week for the studies and certs and things of that nature, I've also sort of embraced, like, you know, it's okay to not know everything. Cause I think Lexi had a good point. Like, like the community is so like social media in general, I want to say is so like look at me. Look at me and look up all I've done. Look at the bright, shiny things. Ooh, gold, shiny objects over here. And it's like, all you hear about on social media is the positive things. Nobody ever talks about the, the iceberg under the water that you don't see, you know, it's that kind of thing. Like, I feel like that's a big thing too. Like there's such this competition to like, okay, I gotta be better than I gotta be better than because I saw so-and-so pass so and exam. So it's this constant, like, like, I don't know, it just feels like this weird space that everyone's s like competing and it's like, guys, have, if you looked at the it jobs recently, they literally don't have enough bodies to fill positions. So like, there more than enough to go around for everybody. It's totally cool to be at your own pace. So I've learned to be at my own pace. I've learned that it's okay to. You don't know what you don't know sort of thing. And you'll get there. It's just a matter of time and how fast you work. So speed is not a thing for me anymore. You know, it's not like, oh my
Lexie: 16:34
Says the guy earning three certs this year alone,
Pat: 16:38
you know, I didn't say it was gonna, I said I was going to try now realistically, I don't think the AWS is going to be this year. It's probably early next, like first quarter of to be honest. And I did them that way becausway because that's sort of,my job up that way. Right? Like we have people that work in AWS almost every day, so, or do every day. so, that's the least pressured one because somebody already at, a couple of people already at my job who are crazy smart. They work in AWS everyday, so I don't need to be an expert in AWS. Right. This second. You know, it's a nice to have, don't get me wrong, but I'm not stressing to get there. I'm not racing to get there because I have other things that, you know, that are a little more prioritized at the moment. So,
Lexie: 17:23
okay.
Pat: 17:24
I'm okay with that. It's totally cool with that. And the other thing I've done is like, you know, I'll let you jump in here and I know going a mile a minute, but the other thing I've done is I've stopped seeking approval from other people. Like that is a big one for me. I'm like, I don't give a flying F like you all stay out there on the fringe. I am going to do what I'm going to do, and you can shake my hand when I get there. Like, you know what I mean? Like these expectations that are out there again, because you never see the bad on social media, it's always the good, right. Nobody ever wants to quantify the bad right. Or amplify the bad it's always good. Good. So, you know, I'm done with. These other people and like, oh, aren't you going to do this? Or are you going to do this? But like I do at my own pace and I don't need to, I don't need to impress anybody, but me because I'm the only one paying my own bills. So later skater
Lexie: 18:13
It's true. And we could open this at this point. We will not. I'm just going to say right now, we're not going to do this, but we could open it up to like, okay. Certs and how important are they? But we're not going to talk about that.
Pat: 18:23
That's, a whole other
Lexie: 18:24
many people will weigh in on, I love what you're saying. I love what you're saying and about like, It's okay. To not know everything. And you don't really have anyone to impress. You're just trying to compete with yourself. Right. I have had to learn that. I, so I've been in networking. I've only had a couple jobs in networking so far. And I went from like working at a cloud provider to working on rockets. I have, you know, it's an incredibly supportive environment over here where I'm working now, but like, I don't know shit about rockets. Right. So like I come on board and it's like, Everybody has knowledge of not only their specialty, like their career field, but also how the rocket works and all these other. Adjacent fields to their own that have to do with how this rocket works. Right? So we have like software engineers who know a lot about network engineering, too. We have mechanical engineers, same thing, right? Like we have everybody sort of overlapping disciplines and it's a really wonderful, insane place to be you know, in that kind of environment, I that I don't know anything about anything other than network engineering. And so it's very humbling, but it's been a great exercise for me, not only in just like sheer learning, which has been fantastic, but also like, you know, it's taught me to like take the setbacks. Cause there will be many, right. When you're new at a job, I'm not totally new to networking, but I'm definitely new to like the way that networking is being applied at my new place. And taking these setbacks of like, okay, I don't fucking understand anything that anyone just said in that meeting, taking that and like maybe I took a few notes in that meeting, like jotted a few things down. I didn't understand taking that and going and saying, all right, what can I learn today? And Googling it. Right? Like, like mechanical engineering, electrical, engineering concepts. I don't understand. But for some reason they are, you know, who would've thought they're relevant to how a rocket works. And therefore they're relevant to me working on the network on the rocket. Like I need to know these things. So having that mindset of like, okay, I don't know anything and it's terrifying, but I'm going to go learn it. What's next. That's really what it's all about. Right? Like, You take the setbacks and you turn them into something that works for you and you're allowed to not feel great about the setbacks, but ultimately don't let it defeat you. Which, you know, that's like a core of the growth mindset I'm learning, but that's really not a new concept at all. Right? Like it's how successful people I think, exist in the world as they use failure as a learning like opportunity.
Pat: 21:02
Yeah. I think failure drives a lot of people at least the most successful people that you hear, you know, the Elon Musks and the, you know, all those crazy people out there, but you know, They and again, you only hear about what they're doing. That's good. Right. You don't hear about the 20 times that they failed before that, before they got on the news be like, Hey look, we launched this, you know, this internet satellite into, you know, into orbit, you know, that sort of thing. So yeah,
Lexie: 21:29
Don't talk about the 80 that fell back to earth immediately
Pat: 21:32
Yeah.
Lexie: 21:33
after lunch. Yeah,
Pat: 21:34
it's just an odd thing. You have to embrace failure at some point to cause that's the only way you really grow. Like, okay, like I've got to get back on the saddle, but I'm not going to do the same thing. Like that's the definition of insanity doing the same thing and expecting different results. So, you know, it's one of those things where you have to embrace it and everything I find too, is that just embracing failure, but allow yourself to, to criticize yourself, like know where your weaknesses are. So then you're conscious of them once that train comes around again, because I feel like that's another
Lexie: 22:06
And work on it. Right. It like a lot of people talked about how they're scared of BGP. All right. Let's go Google BGP, best pass selection process. There's actually a lot of resources on it. Like just piecemeal start learning about it. If something intimidates you. Right. And that's, you know, you don't have to be an expert on it right away.
Pat: 22:24
Right. No, not at all. I've been in, I've been in a senior role for a couple of years now and I've barely touched the surface of BGP and, you know, I've
Lexie: 22:32
We really
Pat: 22:33
companies that actually use it. So I'm like, I, you know, it's one of those like weird unicorns that you're just like, hoping praying that works. Yeah. So, now, and I wanted to sort of circle back this isn't necessarily the growth mindset isn't necessarily. Into the frame of certifications where Lexi and I are talking about it because that's just the easiest space for us to talk about it, but it could be anything. It could be, you know, Hey, you're kind of down because you went on a really good job interview, but they picked someone else, Right. You weren't picked for the interview or you weren't picked for the job or, you know, oh know I had a really big test, you know, that was, you know, half of my grade for this quarter and you know, you didn't do so well. So the growth mindset applies to a lot of different things. It's just here in the context of this conversation. It's certification. Cause that's what Lexia.
Lexie: 23:22
Yeah. And you know what? It could be the reason why you're looking. If you who are listening to us right now are thinking about getting into it or working on it, it could be the reason why you're getting into it in the first place. Like I, I started out in networking, because I sucked at my last career. Right. Like, I was very bad at it because I hated it quite honestly. Like it was not for me, but I didn't know what I was doing after I graduated from college and all that good stuff. And I was just sort of floating around. I fell into a career that sucked and, well, it sucked for me. I'm sorry. But it was just not what I wanted. And it took me a while to realize that, and that is, I mean, for me, that was a failure, but I don't mean that in a negative sense, it was a learning failure for me. And that's what drove me into this career path. Right. So if you're thinking about getting into it and you've already got a career, but you're not happy with it for whatever reason, like use that. That's the definition of the growth mindset. Keep following that instinct and get into it because it can only go up from here.
Pat: 24:25
Yeah, you do have to like what you do at least to some degree, right.
Lexie: 24:31
Well, you can't hate it.
Pat: 24:32
now right
Lexie: 24:33
I'll say that you really, you're not going to do well. If you hate it.
Pat: 24:36
now, no, because something's going to keep you from getting up in the morning, going to work. Right. Putting your shoes on. So you gotta at least like it. enough to do that. Right. So it's yeah. And the other thing too, to, to the Perot's mindset, if you will is it's okay. To be realistic with yourself, like, be like, okay, This is, you know, this, you know, I'm just going to take the eight plus cert like, no, again, it's not a race, you know, and if you're newer or maybe someone with an ex, you know, with experience, if you're on a help desk and you try to climb that ladder a little bit, you know, take an, a plus. So like, like those two different folks, one on one that's already in the industry yet I'll be at the help desk level. And that's not meant to sound negative. That's just where most people start, you know, or someone that's trying to break in that has no prior experience. The A-plus is going to take them to different amount of times just because of the way
Lexie: 25:34
Are you working with it now in your job or you're not? Yeah.
Pat: 25:38
Yeah. It's just, it just is. So if you're that person that's not in the industry yet just be realistic with yourself. It takes time. It takes time. It takes a lot of time. This is just what it is. Any new skill is going to take you a lot of time and that's okay. Just be realistic with yourself, set goals. Right. You know, have a timeframe. Don't just have an open-ended thing. I do that all the time with circuits and stuff. I'm like, ah, I'll get to scheduling it. I'll get to scheduling it. And before, you know, it's like the new year and I'm like, now I'm supposed to take that last July. Like, you know, it was one of the six. So, you know, Put a dart on the dartboard, right? Put a date on the calendar, red circle it, but be realistic with yourself. What you do try to schedule that date is like, okay, you're not going to learn the place in two weeks. Like, you know, for somebody that's not in the industry, that may be six months, but for somebody to help desk, that may be three months. you. know what I mean? There's, it's okay to be different. And everyone learns at a different pace. Everybody's study habits are different and just being realistic with yourself that you're not just shooting for some pie in the sky, you know, arbitrary date and you go in there and you totally bomb it. Cause you just want it to prove a point that you could take it two weeks like that doesn't help any.
Lexie: 26:49
absolutely. And if somebody, you know, we have a lot of people in the community who are interested in being mentors, right. And you don't have to have a mentor to be successful, but if you are struggling to put yourself in this mindset, I do recommend finding someone, who might be offering to mentor new people to your field. Simply because those people have a pretty good, you know, they're usually, people who have a lot of experience in that field and they have a broad perspective. On what it takes to be successful in that field. And, you know, they have an eye on the long-term that you're just not going to be able to have as someone new to the field. And so to have sort of like a reality check, for lack of a better term is actually super, super valuable because they can point out to you, Hey, like, it's great that you're being ambitious with this, but just like go easy on yourself. You know, I've had, have a mentor slash friend from, you know, last positions and he's always just like chill out. You're a great, like just chill out
Pat: 27:51
Yeah, no,
Lexie: 27:52
so many words, And it's great to have someone to enforce sort of like that go easy on yourself, but like, okay, you're interested in. Let's look into it, right? Like it's great to have someone push you along that path. So if you can find someone who's interested in helping you out, even if they just want to help you out with one topic and then leave it at that, like take people up on their offers. It's intimidating. But trust me, it's worth.
Pat: 28:16
Yeah, I find I'm a dude and I talk about this all the time in the show. Find a mentor. Like they're like some of the that's like the secret sauce, like mentor is like, Ooh, you got the golden key right there. But now find one. And I feel like in this community, in the it community specifically, and maybe some other places too, but I feel like people want to help. You just have to, you just have to ask for it. Like, people don't want to be pushy. Right. You're just like, oh, you know, they don't want to be that old man. You know, get off my lawn guy. And like, they want to help. They just don't want to push on people and some people want help. Some people don't. So, you know, open up, ask them it's, you know, nine times out of 10 people are going to say yes, like that's just the vibe that I've got from the last 20 years of being in this industry. People do want to help. Then you just kind of let them know that you're looking for it.
Lexie: 29:08
And another part of that's very related is just like asking questions. Right. Even if you think it's a stupid question, it doesn't And if you're the brand new person at your job and, it's, let's say it's your first job in tech? You're not gonna know a lot probably. And you're going to have to ask a lot of questions, like a lot of questions, and you're going to feel weird and annoying. You're going to feel like you're bothering everyone. And there may be the occasional person. Who's an asshole about it, but they can get fucked too, quite honestly, because you have to ask questions and you have to keep learning. And that's the only way you're going to be successful at your job. Asking questions about anything, whether it's, you know, at work or not is going to give you more knowledge. And that's the goal, right? To be successful. You need to know more about your field. So part of having this mindset about things is, you know, ask questions, find someone who is willing to answer your questions, maybe who knows quite a lot and just keep at it because there's going to be some setbacks. There's going to be people who don't treat you very nicely for asking questions or for not knowing things. I've definitely encountered in my short career, like time line. I've definitely encountered some engineers who were just like, you don't know what it means to just say TFTP to the box. Well, you should know. And if you don't. You shouldn't be here, like shit like that. And it's like, all right, asshole. I'll just go ask somebody else how to TFTP to the box. Like it doesn't matter. Right? Like just ask questions, get your fucking answers. If you don't understand it, get the answer. Even if you have to Google it or whatever, it gets. Some kind of an answer. Don't leave any questions unanswered for yourself. Because that is going to set you apart from other people in the long run and that's, what's going to benefit you.
Pat: 30:55
Yeah I agree. I think that was a fantastic answer, lexi.
Lexie: 30:58
It was a rant. I'm sorry. That was definitely, if you couldn't tell someone, someone was fucking mean to me, not too long ago about not being able to TFTP to a fucking box. So you know what
Pat: 31:08
feathers were ruffled. Love it.
Lexie: 31:10
yeah. It's all right. I got my answer. So.
Pat: 31:15
love it. No, I think that's a good thing. And I'll touch on that a little bit. I feel like when I first started to and I S. From 2003 to 2010 from a local cable company up here doing the cable modems when high-speed internet was really taken off in the home sort of thing. And then I moved to a front desk security, ish security guard, ish job at a data center. So I was signing people in with badges and leading them to their data, you know, to their data centers and, you know, proactively looking for alarms and stuff like that. And so that was sort of my first real sense of okay. The it industry, if you will, the collective term. And so, and I met one of my very best friends to this day. Actually two of them they were both network guys where I worked. They really took me under their wing as far as trying to get me to that next level. And they were there, they were a shoulder. They were, you know, and I, you know, that was right when I was doing the CCNA. And like I said earlier, it took me three times to pass. And it's not an easy test if you're not in the networking world in that aspect of hands-on every day. You probably, if you're cold like that, and I use that term loosely with quotation marks if you're cold, I would say network plus is probably a little better avenue to sort of break in there and then go to the CCNA to get a little more Cisco specific long story short. And I know that was a long rant. They were really good mentors to me and, you know, we were doing whiteboard sessions and, you know, just breaking it down and put it into my mindset of thinking, okay, look, how is he going to think about it from a newbie perspective? And that really. You know, and there was a good, there was a good amount of, you know, jabbing going on back and forth like, Aw, come on rookie. But it was from a good place. Right. So. You know, and that sort of motivated me to kind of, you know, I want to be like that guy, like, I don't want to be the guy that has to ask questions. I want to be the guy that has the answers, you know, that sort of thing. So it was a good place. It was a good nurturing environment in that space. And I feel like that really that really kind of was a springboard of having someone at the next level to understand what goes on at that level. And then that makes my level a little easier if you will. So we're big proponent here on the show of mentors, find one, you know, do you want to use us for a mentor? That's fine to live, reach out to us. We're totally cool. Yeah. Reach out Lexi and all the other folks that are out there, you know, especially on Twitter I feel like Twitter has a pretty decent Texas. Nowadays. So it's a good it's
Lexie: 33:45
Twitter is amazing for technical information. I mean, we have, like, we have like people in TAC, shout out to Christopher Hart, to be honest with Cisco, we have people like him in tech, who will tweet about. Interesting bugs that they find on the hardware they work on. Right? Like we have, so, you know, John Capobianco, who was it? Who was it? Networking guy, but he's super into like, scripting and Python, everything. Yeah. Development now, like he fucking loves teaching people. Like there are people out there and maybe they're not where you work. Right. Like maybe you can't hit it, hit them up in person. You need to do it over social media. But if you need to do it over social media, do it because there are people who are almost desperate to like teach other people who are extremely passionate about this stuff. So if you can't find this person where you work it, you know, it's, it'd be nice if he could, but it's not the end of the world because we live the internet. Right. Like, you can find
Pat: 34:43
for good. Yeah.
Lexie: 34:44
yes. Use the internet for good. You have so much information at your fingertips. And so many people who want to help and I think it's only just getting better, right? Like we have more podcasters now we have more discord servers where everybody's like sharing information and their home labs and all sorts of stuff going on. Like just reach out, throw a tweet into the, either someone will find you, you know, they'll answer your
Pat: 35:07
of John Kappa Bianco, we had him on a few episodes ago athlete titled automate all the things. So if you're after this episode, you want to go talk some dev and some automation. That was a fantastic episode. So go visit us and John, that was really good chat. So, anyway, so, shameless plug now
Lexie: 35:23
that's great. It's episode 19. If
Pat: 35:26
look at that. Wow.
Lexie: 35:27
I got it. I'm on
Pat: 35:29
you actually do care now if
Lexie: 35:32
I'm not what you think. I'm just someone who just hop on a podcast that I
Pat: 35:36
pay attention, Lexi, I'm so proud.
Lexie: 35:40
Of course I'm a fan y'all, I'm a hero and more seriously, like I'm S I, this is, this podcast is a great example of people who want to help, right? Like we want to help you, you know, patentee and they want to help you. So,
Pat: 35:53
appreciate it.
Lexie: 35:54
reach out. Yeah,
Pat: 35:55
Yeah. And it doesn't have to be in the network space. Right. It can be about breaking in. It could be like, you just have a general question that we, you know, we probably have been through it or at least, you know, know somebody that had been, that has been through it or maybe we've been through similar situations. So, yeah. Feel free to reach out. We're here to help him. You know, that's all we can do really is help this podcast is just basically a mentorship out there in the ether world. And whoever wants to listen to it is more than welcome to, and we're happy to oblige. So, yeah, so I, again, mentors is huge. The growth mindset again is huge. I, you know, I feel like we, we were sort of, beating around the Bush a little bit for a couple of weeks on this one. And this actually this came from one of our Lister surveys or I should say responses. And it came through. One of the folks that, so in our survey asked, you know, what topics do you want us to cover and things of that nature and the one the one person Shaq 23. So shout out to him. He said that he wants to do, or he, I'm assuming it's a, he wants to do a growth mindset. Like how do you get into that realm? How do you get into that, you know, mindset, right? For lack of better term. So w we've been sort of throwing it around for a little bit, and I feel like you were this was a good time to talk about it since again, you're sorta, you know, you're, you got your feet wet into the network space. And what does that look like from today's perspective of growing that mindset and climbing that ladder and, you know, going from, you know, certification to certification. And again, not specific to that just, you know, put it in this example. So I feel like you were coming from a good head space to talk about that and sort of take that.
Lexie: 37:30
Absolutely. And actually, now that you said that interesting thing about assuming the person is a man, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just go ahead and fucking take over and say, if you're a woman listening to this podcast and you're feeling intimidated, cause almost everyone in tech, it seems like is a man. It can be a lot harder to reach out to a man and ask for mentorship because, like let's face it. The chances that when you're asking for help, it's going to be to a man. Or there's going to be men in your space overwhelmingly, and maybe no women are very high. So totally understandable. I, when I started out my first position in networking in tech, I was the only woman on my team. it could be uncomfortable at times, depending on who was there and how they were acting. Right. But ultimately, there are way more people in the world who want to help then who don't write or actively wish you ill. So try to keep that in mind. I know it's easier said than done, but specifically if you're a woman feeling intimidated by like a mostly male space, try to keep that in mind. And don't be afraid to be seen in a negative light because I know women a lot of the time, we are a lot more conscious of that, especially when we're in a, like men only, or nearly all men space. Try to kind of say, you have to practicing fuck it a lot. And it's hard, but you have to, honestly, you have to like keep, you know, when I was the only woman on my team for a long time, and we had some men who were like not very appropriate for a lot of reasons, I had to keep thinking like, all right, well, he can just go fuck himself, like in my head over and over again. And that helped me get through the day to be quite honest, like it wasn't a horrible experience. Don't get me wrong, but there were moments when it was rough. And when you're a woman who. Really know a whole lot about whatever field you're going into and you're starting out and you're new. And then everyone around you as a man and they know everything, it can be really rough. So you just have to keep fucking pushing through and asking questions. And if someone gets pissed off at you for asking questions or they roll their eyes and make a comment about you were only hired because you're a woman or you're a diversity hire, you can just tell them to go fuck themselves and go move on to the next person. See if they'll answer your question. Don't actually maybe say like, get fucked in person depends on your workplace, but you know what I mean? Right. Like say it in your head, go fuck yourself, move on to the next person I've had to do it. And it sucks. But I found, you know, a man who was a great mentor and friend to me in the end, who, you know, did not give a shit who I was just liked my attitude and that I wanted to learn. It worked out. Great. Right. So try not to let those things kind of turn you off immediately to tech because they can be very intimidating and I can only speak to that as a But you know, I th I think it, it probably rings true for a lot of other groups as well. So there's my plug. Thanks for letting me, yell about that.
Pat: 40:41
thanks for coming to my Ted talk right
Lexie: 40:43
Yeah.
Pat: 40:45
now. I think that was, I think that was well put personally, I feel like there's a change in the last, maybe seven, eight years, somewhere in there. I feel like there's this weird old guard that. Like they held onto their trade secrets and they didn't want to share info for you with you. Because then that means they're if they're the only ones with the keys of the castle, that means it can't fire them. Right. That sort of thing. Like, I feel like there's like when I started like, you know, into the actual space, it was like, there was quite a few people like that. Like they didn't want to help because if they shared with you, then that means that, you know, they thought they saw you as a threat. And they're like, ah, well, yeah, he's going to have my job next week. And I'm going to be out like, like again, have you seen the, it, the it field right now in this absolutely booming. Like there is enough work to go to the ramp to go around till the cows come home. Like it's just insane. But then the last, I dunno, it was the last, you know, like I said, seven, eight years and things of that nature, I feel like it is getting better. I dunno if those people are just retiring or what the deal is you know, Like Lexi said, I think, I, at least I want to say nine times out of 10, you go ask somebody they're going to, they're going to let you into their world. And, you know, they, people just want to be helpful. I think that's people's nature. Yeah. And then with the women in texting I, I do feel like there's space there for everybody it's that, you know, it's, again, it's a huge space. Like find what you like and go full bore At it. You're eventually going to land somewhere. That's just like I can't stress that enough. I've worked with some really good females in the space. Some of them have been my boss at various companies, so it's just it's just, it is what it is. You know, I think they have a lot to offer, I think shout out to shout out to Tanya who I worked with her a couple jobs ago. She was a black female. She was fantastic. Like her server admin knowledge was like, I was taking those from her and I'm like, you know, it's one of those things. And she wanted to do, she wanted to get into the network space. So like we would feed off each other. She teach me about active directory from a windows perspective and I would teach her about ASAP and routing and switching. So like, it was a
Lexie: 43:08
At us
Pat: 43:10
like, scratch my back
Lexie: 43:11
a knowledge exchange.
Pat: 43:13
do labs together downtime and all that stuff. So I think she's still at where we work. So I think she actually got bumped to a manager or something in that level of managing people. So shout out to her. But Yeah. know, like I said, I've had women bosses before and I've only had one women, one woman coworker, as far as like we were on the same team together. But from what I've, you know, from Tanya, I would hire. Tomorrow, if she would come to me and be like, oh, I need a change of pace. And my shit, girls sign on that dotted line because you're coming with me, you know, it was that kind of thing. So, no I do feel like it is, it's a huge space and my two daughters will learn. We'll be learning tech from early on, you know, from the stem, you know, fields, if you will. I think that's a popular term now. Right. Stem. You know, doing, Yeah. Do an acronym kind of thing. And You know, dad's a tinkerer, right. With all kinds of electronics and all kinds of
Lexie: 44:01
Yeah. You know, in the past, no, I'm not saying shove it down your daughter's throats. All right. But because that can do the opposite
Pat: 44:09
Yeah.
Lexie: 44:10
with anything, you know, something I expressed our podcast, the art of network engineering a while ago was that, you know, when I was a kid and this is not a knock against my dad at all, I, to be fair was a little shit as a teenager and did not expect, you know, I didn't want to learn anything. I just wanted to like play video games, but
Pat: 44:28
That's hard to believe Lexi, like you were in trouble.
Lexie: 44:30
Well, I mean, I got, I was one of the, I was one of those kids that like as good grades, but like also tells their teachers to like, fuck off. Right. So it's like, but yeah, like, I, I didn't wanna, I didn't want to, yeah, exactly. I've been, this is not a persona. I adopted, let me tell you, But yeah I w one thing that I regret that I wish I could go back and tell my teenage self is like, learn how to build a fucking PC. Like learn it now before you have to deal with paying for it yourself. Right. Cause I wish I had gotten more of an introduction to the tech space. I could have done it if I had like asked my like male friends, but high school boys are like, not the no funds, but like y'all are like annoying to learn from. They just want to impress you. So they're going to just like tell you all these. Terms that are way over your head cause you're new at it. And then it turns you off to it. Right? So like, anyway, I wish I had learned more and what I could have done and what I should have done. And if my parents were actually like a little more cool with me playing video games or computer games, what they could have done has been like, Hey you, why don't we, why don't we learn instead of us just buying you computers so you can play more games on it without any thought. Why don't we just go to it? You know, an electronic store and let's pick you up some parts to build you a PC so that you can play those games that you love playing so much, and you can learn how to build a PC. Right? Like I wish. So what I'm saying, all of that is to say, if your daughter has expressed any interest in something where you can like teach them some tech stuff so that they can do the thing, like building a PC or something like that, you should definitely offer a few different times to teach them. Don't force them, but like offer because I was too much of an idiot teenager to be like, Hey, I think this is cool, but I'm really intimidated by it. Can you help me build a PC dad? Like I should have done that. He didn't know, but anyway, I'm just saying like make the offer to your
Pat: 46:25
no, that's a good point. W we had Dera footprint on a couple episodes ago, CCA by 30, go check her stuff out. She is
Lexie: 46:32
It's awesome.
Pat: 46:33
phenomenal, she was she was in the same boat, sort of, with me and getting into tech from a high school level. And I got the bug from my dad who was a tech guy as well. I'll be, you know, not one of the grumpy guys, but while he's grumpy with me, but in the workspace, It's not grumpy and he's ready to retire. But you know, I got the bug from him. Like he, he started out as a PC tech and that was in the late nineties when. Parts you had to like swap parts and hard drives and all that kind of crazy shit. So like he would bring it home on the kitchen table and I'd be like, Ooh, what's that like, and that sort of sparked the interest. So I feel like, and theater said the same thing, but you know, a little later in the high school years, you know, she was, you know, asking her folks for a computer and things of that nature and it just kind of sparked curiosity. So I think the earlier you can get people involved is where the better the Exposure. is. Then I feel like that opens more gates the quicker you do it, the wider the gate opens, I think. And it feels like there could be a lot more of that. You know, at the same time, it's like, you know, there's this weird, like, okay, you want them to learn and you want them to be. Tech savvy, because that is the world going forward. Right. We're not kidding ourselves when we say that. Right. It's not a, you know, that's not a a pie in the sky idea, but you know, it's like, all right, well, you know, and the thing with cell phones too, like I see kids running around with cell phones. It's like, all right. How, like how early is too early? I guess that's where my mind comes in as a
Lexie: 48:05
that's. We need a parenting episode just dedicated.
Pat: 48:09
that's it. Yeah. So I, I like, again, I feel like maybe I want to say, I don't know, maybe I'm dating myself eighth grade, ninth grade, somewhere in there is probably a good, you know, Hey, let's open this up and see what this is. Or Hey, like I, and Lexi, I know you sorta said, let's, you know, there's a coding academy for everybody, but like they're teaching kids as young as like five or six with like Minecraft and all kinds of crazy stuff, coding at that level. And I'm like, All right, this is cool. it just, I don't know. Is there a too young
Lexie: 48:44
it depends. Right. And of course that's up to your, up to parents. And if the kid is your kid like super getting into that on their own, maybe you can encourage it a little more if they're not just expose them and see what happens. Not everyone's going to get into tech who has tech parents. Right. But you know, it. I just know, I regret my teenage self so much for this. It's just, I just know that if someone that I trusted had come up to me and been like, Hey, you want to play some really good games. Let's build you a PC. Even in like, you know, I was, I've been playing computer games since I was like old enough to sit in a computer chair and like touch the mouse. Right? Like, I've been just banging my little hands on my, you know, on the keyboard Microsoft word. So I, if someone had just been like, Hey, you can build this and it will be really powerful and cool. And you can swap out the parts whenever you want. Like that would have really peaked my interest. I just was afraid to ask and didn't think it was really an option. So anyway,
Pat: 49:41
no, that's, I think that's a good I think that's a good thing. I th again, I think the younger, the better but there is a, I think there's a sweet spot there, to be honest, really try to get people
Lexie: 49:49
And we'll tie that we're going off on a tangent, but we can tie this back to the growth mindset. Right. Because you can, I swear, I'm not reaching here too far. You can actually teach your kids, right? Like this is a great way to teach your kids the growth mindset too. Right. Because you know, I'm just going to use building a PC as like the example here. Cause it's easy. But like if you go through, even with as young as maybe an elementary age kid or primary school, like. You sit there and you take it apart or you look at it or you swap out parts or whatever you're doing with it. Right. Or you just build it in front of them and answer their questions. And then as they get older, maybe they try something like that themselves and you do it with them and you teach them like, okay, if something goes wrong, like it's okay. Let's just keep trying or, okay. That part is defective. Let's go get another one. Like you can teach them a setback doesn't mean anything other than like, okay. We adjust to it and we keep going. Right. And that can help foster a lot of that in kids. I'm
Pat: 50:47
sure. No, that makes sense. Look, you're wiser than your years there, Lexi. I like it.
Lexie: 50:52
thank you. I appreciate that. For someone who does not have children, I try. Yeah.
Pat: 50:58
go look at that. Yeah. so we're right around that hour. We try to keep it nice and short a while, relatively short, I guess. So, we appreciate everybody joining this week. Lexi, you want to give yourself a self plug? Where can people find you shout out to the art of network engineering podcast? Those guys has been amazing help to this podcast. AAJ Dan, Andy Tim and now Lexi. Right? You're part of that.
Lexie: 51:21
I'm new for some reason they wanted me. So there I am sometimes. Yeah, no, thanks so much for having me on pat. It's been great. We love you guys. Like, we've just continually been saying, like, everybody wants everybody to succeed in this community is a very supportive community. We love that your podcast is out there helping people. And you know, of course it's our pleasure to help out. But thanks for having me on, if anybody wants to like, listen to my voice more for some fucking reason I stream on Twitch at you can just find me at track at pacer. That's packet tracer the program, but like switch some of the letters. Right? So it's track at pacer in case you were getting confused. I know it's a bit of a mind. Fuck. Yeah.
Pat: 52:01
actually. It's one of my favorites. Not going to
Lexie: 52:03
I, created it just to be annoying. You can find me so you can find me on Twitch. I'm going to start streaming every Monday night now. Occasionally I stream on RPN randomly. That's red, it's streaming service. It's a lot crappier than Twitch, but whatever. And then I, you can also hear me. We release episodes every Wednesday, I believe for the art of network engineering podcast. So yeah.
Pat: 52:24
there
Lexie: 52:24
Oh and Twitter @tracketpacer. You can find me on Twitter being an idiot as well.
Pat: 52:28
She's a fantastic follow-ups with her. I care. Like, I scan Twitter to be like, Oh, where's Lexia. Oh, there she is. Ah,
Lexie: 52:39
that's so that's a sweet, that makes me feel so warm and
Pat: 52:41
There You go. Warm and fuzzy. That's what we're about here at the show. Yeah. Art of network engineering podcast for all your network nerds out there, like myself like that, like Lexi Wednesdays, I believe they publish, like she said, Wednesday is actually, I know when they publish, because I talked to AJ about it Wednesday at 6:00 AM. The new episodes drop cause ours drops Tuesday at 5:00 AM and that came from a request from AIG to be like, you can drop it every day. Just don't do it Wednesday at six with us. I'm like deal. So, now we hope to have the rest of you guys. Oh on here. Tim and Andy and them we're trying to get people's schedules worked out. So we're going to have a big round table at one point. I think that's going to be cool. So just trying to
Lexie: 53:23
Oh my God. Be careful. What you wish for
Pat: 53:25
I, now we're ready to
Lexie: 53:26
guys are trouble.
Pat: 53:28
Taken into the deep end. Here we go. We're just ripping that bandaid off.
Lexie: 53:32
God. Good luck.
Pat: 53:34
Cool. Well, Lexi, thanks. This has been awesome. Really appreciate you. I thought this was a really good discussion for folks out there in the growth mindset and a little bit of mentorship and women in tech and things of that nature. So I think some really good stuff that needed to be said, so I appreciate you joining.
Lexie: 53:50
Thanks for having me. That was great.
Pat: 53:52
All right. Cool. Get outta here. Thanks for joining this week on, so you're going to be in it, right? Make sure you visit our website. soyouwannabeinit.com. You can subscribe to the show from the subscribe page there, iTunes, Google, Spotify, Stitcher, or just a plain RSS feed. There's a bunch of them up there too, Overcast and Castbox and wherever you basically listen to a podcast, there's a link there to our show. So go there, subscribe to your favorite one. Throw us a a radio on iTunes. I don't even know if that works anymore. To be honest with you, I've heard different things that iTunes sorta took that away and now they just play with algorithms and if you make it great. Oh, well sort of thing. So I'm not sure, but ratings are good. I mean, it looks pretty on paper. So go a, go, give us a rating on iTunes. That would be cool. Or tell your friends about it right in this digitally connected age that we all live in. I think Lexie will agree with this. Simply just telling a friend word of mouth works just as good, maybe sometimes even better. So,
Lexie: 54:49
Yes,
Pat: 54:49
You can do that too. Sure. To follow us on Twitter and Instagram, Facebook, all that stuff. All of the social links are on our website. There's a direct links to them. Whatever platform of choice, go hang out and click the button. A discord server. It's a sywbiit.com/discord that lets you come hang out with us and be part of the community here again. We're there all day. We hang there all day and you know, What not. So if you have a question you know, we want to come hang out. That's cool too. We also have a survey out there for the listeners, just a general survey. Just a couple of questions. And if there's like 10 questions on there just general information. We don't know who you are. We don't collect it. We don't sell it. We just aggregate it and helps us tweak the show a little bit. So that's it. That's sywbiit.com/survey.. So go check that out if you want to be part of the show. And again, just helps us tweak the show content a little better just to see what you like. Don't like, and then we can we can oblige accordingly. So again, Lexi, thanks for joining us. It's been awesome. And we'll see everybody next week.