Episode 28: Software Engineering with John Glasgow
This week we sat down with Kyle's former coworker John Glasgow and the fascinating world of Software Engineering. We chat about what programming languages are in demand, solving problems through coding, starting a blog to show your progress, and even a little managerial responsibilities!
Check out John's LinkedIn profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnglasgow3/
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Pat: 0:01
Everybody welcome back to this. Week's edition of breaking down the bites. I'm your host, pat. You can find me on Twitter at layer eight packet Kyle's over there as always sidekick it. You can find him on Twitter at Dan 2 56. You can find the show on Twitter at breaking bites pod. Or if you just wanna look in our show notes of the episode, uh, all of our links are in there. We're pretty active on Twitter. So, uh, come say hello to Kyle and I and, uh, back for another arousing episode of the podcast here this week, Kyle, what's
Kyle: 0:34
just live in the dream another day in paradise. We're gonna another Thursday here gonna drop on a Tuesday, right? Boom.
Pat: 0:42
up, man? How you doing? That's it. That's it. That's how we roll that. And downhills let's rock and roll. Yeah. It's been a rough couple of weeks and, you know, just doing our thing and in the vast world of networks and all kinds of crazy issues and internet outages and crazy, crazy stuff. So, uh, this week, Kyle, it's a little outside, at least outside of my wheelhouse. So we're gonna talk to, uh, someone that's much smarter than we are in his avenue. in his field of it. Uh, and John, let me know if I get this right. It's director of it at international Institute for restorative practices or I, I R P graduate school. Mr. John Glasgow. Hey John, how are you?
John: 1:22
good. How are you doing?
Pat: 1:24
Not too bad. I got that right. Is that right? Is that your official title?
John: 1:27
got it It's a mouthful.
Pat: 1:30
that's it starting off on the right foot. That's how we like to do things here
John: 1:34
Yep.
Pat: 1:35
now. That's awesome. So, John, thanks for joining John, your sort of, uh, forte, if you will, is in the software development arena, is that correct, man,
John: 1:45
I've been in the, uh, kind of programming software development space for, uh, about 20 years professionally.
Pat: 1:55
man,
John: 1:56
So yeah.
Pat: 1:57
I don't know how you do it that long, man. I, I just, I don't have the program or brain, like, I don't know what the, like, you have to have its like certain mindset to like play in that avenue. I just don't. I, I wish I did cuz I know, you know, it's a software world going forward right. Where everyone else is just living in it at this point. it just never appealed to me in that particular avenue. So, John starting off, like where did, where and how did you get your start and sort of like get exposed to the software field and go, yeah, this is what I wanna do.
John: 2:27
Yeah. So back when I was about 10, got a, uh, a Zenni X 86, uh, big block computer. Right. And, um, I didn't know anything about it. So I ended up like pouring through dos three manuals and really getting into it. Um, then I, I had people along the way that kind of helped me, you know, uh, get into like some like batch scripting, and then from there into like Java VB four stuff like that. Like back when I was in high school, I kicked around like, do I do this? Do I, you know, go to law school and go that route? You know, I didn't really know which way to go. Like I was even thinking of joining the Marines. Um, and what I ended up doing was saying, you know what, I just really like computers. I'm really interested in technology. I'm gonna go for that. So, um, went to school at, uh, got my, uh, bachelor's in, computer science and, you know, um, had a couple internships, stuff like that. Um, and then from there, like it, of course around that time, for me, it was the.com bubble that burst. Right. So, you know, you had, um, All these people that were working@likepets.com and stuff like that that were like out looking for jobs, uh, with masters and PhDs and, you know, being somebody that's interested in coding, uh, that was kind of a hard one to beat What I ended up doing was, um, started working at a little, um, insurance company and I was actually like helping sell insurance and things like that, but they had all these needs right. Keeping track of all the different policies that they had as well as, um, like things like payroll like they didn't have a payroll system, so it was all paper. So I, I wrote those systems then next thing you know a job that I had applied for. Like six months prior to getting that insurance job, uh, finally the position opened and, uh, I went to work there as a, as an it analyst,
Pat: 4:57
nice. No, that, that sounds pretty, pretty decent. So when did you get into the software development side of it? Did you get exposed to like a lot of things like network or, you know, CIS admin or cybersecurity? You got, you got all that and then like,
John: 5:13
yeah. Oh yeah,
Pat: 5:14
software engineer.
John: 5:16
yeah. yeah, So, I initially wanted to become a network admin, uh,
Pat: 5:22
that's what we like to hear. I like it.
John: 5:24
yeah. Like I really liked that, that space. And I, uh, I ended up doing that for a couple years., Kind of working for telemarketing division of a timeshare company. So like they had dialer equipment that would like spit out like hundreds of thousands of calls a day. And, um, yeah, so like I was keeping all that equipment running, but then they had these needs, these other needs that were more software focused and that's when I started to really get into the coding more of a full-time thing. So from there, uh, you know, I became a, a programmer. At a, local four year college. And then I just kind of kept working and, uh, doing different projects and stuff. Uh, eventually started my own software company and built something from the ground up for that. That was pretty exciting.
Pat: 6:24
Nice.
John: 6:25
yeah.
Pat: 6:26
That's awesome. That quick story. On the telemarketer side, I worked at a place and one of our customers was a telemarketing firm. And at the time I was, in the field, you know, and whatnot. And they, they had some issues. So I had to, so I had to run up there and whatnot, and, and John you're exactly right. Like they had it was a room full of employees and they would sit in front of this. It looked like a, it was like a dos terminal for a lack of better term. That's sort of what it looked like. And. Their, their software would automatically dial the numbers and they had a script they read from, and it was the same thing over and over. And it's like, you only had like 30 seconds in between calls. It was like the craziest thing I've ever seen. Like, wow. I feel like I like, just like, I'm back behind the curtain of all those spam telemarketer calls right now. I'm like, this is how it works. This is crazy. You know? So, um, yeah, I, I was there for like a half a day, just troubleshooting some issues and whatnot. And I was like, I saw how these, these folks worked and I was like, whoa, this is like, Weird like it was just, it was so out of place, I don't wanna say out place, but it was like, I've never, I was never exposed to that before. I didn't know how all that kind of stuff worked, but yeah, they sat in front of these terminals and it, the, it just dialed random numbers and there was like maybe 60 people in the room and they all were working off the same script and it was like, whoa, that is that's some crazy stuff right there. So just little inside information. I was like, wow, that's that? It was interesting on how the, you peel back the curtain to some of that spam, some of the spam calls you're like, wow, this is kind of crazy.
John: 8:09
it really is. I mean, we had probably 150 people working there full time, so it was nothing to have a quarter of a million calls go out a day and everything had to be working and this was like early days of VoIP and stuff like that too. So it was pretty, pretty
Pat: 8:27
Yeah. This place was on like Cisco eye ads and all kinds of crazy stuff. Like it. I was like, whoa, the analog and auto dialers. And I was like, whoa,
John: 8:37
Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm
Pat: 8:39
no, that was just a quick, uh, quick story. I thought that was cool. You mentioned the telemarket, everything. I was like, oh, I have a story about that.
John: 8:44
oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy.
Pat: 8:47
John, you, you kind of started. So you started at the college there for the software engineering side. Did you start out in a particular language or did you learn at all? Like, did you have a, did you have a favorite language? Was it Java ,c plus at that point or.
John: 9:02
Oh yeah. Some people will probably not like this, but I, I really liked, uh, VB four, which became V then became VB six. and then Dot net came around and that's when I started getting into vb.net C sharp, um, started plugging away on those, um, made a lot of cool stuff in the.net stack, Microsoft stack in general. Um, and then probably the last six or seven years have been done almost exclusively Python stuff. So,
Pat: 9:38
that was my next question. Python seems to be super popular right
John: 9:43
it's so good. It is so good. Um, easy to pick up. It's got everything baked into it. Uh, there's like 50 different ways to solve a problem. It's great.
Pat: 9:54
Yeah. no, that's interesting. Cuz I'm I started to study for the, I'm in the network space obviously and where I'm at now is a heavy Cisco shop. so I've started to kind of peel back the onion on the Cisco DevNet stuff. So a lot of Python. Um, like Ansible automation, that sort of thing. And you know, ,I can barely, barely read a Python script. Like if I had one in front of me, I could read it as far as like what it's doing with the four loops and dictionaries or lists and things of that nature. But if you put a blank piece of paper in front of me and said, okay, I need you to write a Python script that does X, Y, and Z. I'm like, you might as well be talking astrophysics cuz I have no I'm like, I don't know what's going on here. I know Python is very. Popular now it's like you said, it's, it's easy to pick up. It's very flexible in that manner, things of that nature. And it's just seemed to gain a whole lot of steam in the last couple of years. And, you know, it's even creeping into Kyle and iSpace in, in the network space of trying to automate some of the boring things, right. The, the everyday mundane, you know, tasks and whatnot. And I kind wanna get your take on this. Like how, like, it, it always says like, oh, automation and, and, um, scripts and things of that nature. It eliminates the human error element. Like, what do you think of that? Like, as far as, so It, does.
John: 11:11
it does up to the point of, uh, the developer knows what they're doing. so, you know, if, if somebody co codes it wrong, they're gonna be wrong every time. Whereas a person might only make, yeah. Might make a mistake here or there. You try to catch all those things. Uh, testing's really important.
Pat: 11:32
Sure. Yeah, no, I agree with that as far as the the testing and, you know, QA and, you know, U a T and, you know, all that kind of stuff, it kind of gets, you know, it goes through, you know, four or five cycles before it actually gets to production and, you know, hopefully you're catching most of it before it actually gets to production. Right. That's the name of the game. Um, yeah. So I'm, I'm curious on that, aspect of it, John, do you do, um, like I know stuff like, uh, like GitHub and, uh, code repository, places are super, super popular nowadays. Uh, are, are you on that bandwagon of, you know, keeping all your code in one spot and it's peer reviewed and all that kind of crazy stuff.
John: 12:14
sometimes, the kind of, the crazy thing is, is a lot of my code is like from multigenerational kind of. So it's got like, I have some stuff in bit bucket. I have some stuff over in, uh, GitHub. I have some stuff in GitLab I need to consolidate, but I haven't gotten to that point yet. Even stuff that it isn't, uh, like code, like, um, I have some, uh, documents, like, uh, little, uh, it director in a box toolkit that I'm, I've been compiling. I put all the documents in there as like marked down files. So, you know, when you look at 'em you can kind of just see everything that's already out there. It's pretty, uh, pretty nice way to do things.
Pat: 13:05
Nice. So as far as your interest in the software development and engineering space, is that. Like, is it the structure of what software engineering brings that attracted you to it? Or is there another piece to be like, okay, look, if, look, if I just write this code, you know, I move the robot's arm or, you know, whatever, that sort of thing. Is there, is there like one piece that sticks out? Like, yeah, I like this aspect of it. That kind of draw that drew you towards making it a career.
John: 13:30
I think for me it started as a, just a challenge. you know, just like a mental exercise of, okay, how, how can I solve this problem? it gets really addicting after you, you solve one or two challenges where you're like, okay, now I know how to do this. And you know, you keep piling on more and more knowledge and, you know, before you know it, like you're doing it full time.
Pat: 13:54
Cool. Look at that, Look at that, Kyle, I see you shaking your head in,
Kyle: 13:58
Yeah, I used to work with John. I don't know about a year ago or so. Um, and I got to see the process and, and the things happen and he'd be like, come check this out. Look at what I, what I made look at, you know, what this does. And he gave me a few coding challenges and stuff, I can muddy the water some with writing code, but definitely not a programmer.
Pat: 14:22
I'm, I'm just curious, like for those starting out, cause that's obviously, this is the audience of this podcast is for those breaking in, right. So either from a college perspective or, you know, mid, mid, uh, life career change, Either one, do you have any suggestions as far as like, okay,, you, don't gotta break down DaVinci's code to learn some software development sort of thing. Like, is there, is there like a building block that you would say like, like in our world, Kyle and I's world, like if you wanna do networking, right. Cisco's the, the elephant in the room, right. So you're CCNA your CCMP and you sort of walk up from there. Like, is there something like that in the coding world or the software world that doesn't make software engineering? So scary. I guess if that's the right term for it, like, like what's your suggestion to say, okay, somebody really likes this. What's that next step into saying, okay, this is how you get your foot in the door, or at least, you know, dip your toe in the.
John: 15:16
I, I would say go with something that's easy to pick up. Um, you know, I'll throw, uh, Python out there again, just because I'm kind of a fanboy for at the moment. Uh, you know, there's tons of information out there on just beginning, uh, beginners programming, beginner, coding, like type things out on like YouTube, uh TMY uh, Pluralsight, all those places are really good to, to learn. What I will suggest to, to the listener is you. Go out there and just meet people that are in that space. They'll tend to lead you down the right path. Um, I know that's worked in my case. Uh, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there now on like Reddit and places like that, too, that you could, uh, go and, and engage people and try to learn.
Pat: 16:19
Now we, we talk about all the time, get involved in your, you know, in your community, right. You know, pick a community, whatever that is, whatever avenue that is and, you know, get out there on whatever platform they're, they're hanging on, right. Twitter, or, you know, uh, you, GitHub is a big one for, for you guys in the software space or, you know, um, cybersecurity is another one like that, that space is booming. Like they have their own, you know, they, they go out there and, you know, do their own things on, you know, try HeNe and hack the box and all that kind of stuff. Those platforms that you can go out there. So, yeah, I, I would say find your, find your niche, find where they're hanging out and then, you know, it's like a virtual water cooler. Just go hang around the water cooler. You'll find somebody that's ready to, you know, take you under your wing and show you the ropes.
John: 17:02
And, you know, um, the, the one thing that I did too, just because I was really like, kind of gung-ho for, it was, you know, you, you just keep plugging away, try to make one, one thing that's challenging for you. And then you build another thing that's challenging. Uh, and you know, over time you'll be like, Hey, this may actually turn into a product and then, you know, just run with it.
Pat: 17:28
Yeah. So how, how did that work for you with your, you said you kind of spun up your own software company. Did that come from, you know, like almost like a, like a project, a passion sort of thing, and then you kind of turned it into a, Hey, we can do this. There's a need for this. There's a market for it. And you kind of lived in that space.
John: 17:44
Yeah. Yeah. This was probably back when there wasn't a whole lot of browser compatibility so like around the like the 2010s or early 2010s where, you know, you had internet Explorer, Chrome, Firefox, uh, all kind of doing their own thing. That there were, you know, different websites would work correctly or incorrectly depending on which browser you used. So, um, i, I wrote a program that would, uh, keep track of which sites would be, um, going and using a certain browser. Uh, so like you would just. Click it, and it would fire up the right browser for you for that app, for that, uh, URL. And, um, that was just out of pure frustration. where I, was like, man, I can't keep track of all these sites, you know, and what browsers compatible with them and all that stuff that whole like old active X thing that within an Explorer that was going on. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Um, so I, I ended up writing that, um, wrote like a, an account system for it, a billing system. Um, and you know, one thing after the next, next thing, you know, I've got a, a, a company so, um, yeah, it, it was, a good learning experience. Uh, and you know, it started to get me into management a little bit.
Pat: 19:26
Interesting. So I got, I wanna kind of. Circle back a little bit. You said, uh, sort of the way you came on the radar here to come on, the podcast is you and Kyle work together and I'm assuming that's at, uh, the community college there. Kyle, is that right? So, John, what were you doing at, at the community college? Okay.
John: 19:43
uh, so that was my, first time into, uh, a director position. So I was, uh, director of administrative systems officially. Um, so what that kind of entailed was keeping track of all the different software applications, helping people, uh, with a problems that they may have doing deployments, uh, implementing systems, uh, create a few like smaller systems. For, uh, for folks that may have needed them. Um, and yeah, eventually that took over the, uh, enterprise server area too, that Kyle worked in.
Pat: 20:31
Cool. Now Kyle, did you report to John at
Kyle: 20:34
Uh, john was my boss's boss, so, right, right. so I mean, I guess, you
Pat: 20:42
ah, so we're getting up the chain here. we got some we got some heavy lifters. I like it.
Kyle: 20:46
Yeah.
John: 20:48
yeah.
Pat: 20:49
That's right, John, I better throw some spec on your name. Look out. We're dealing with the, dealing with the good folk right now. that's awesome. So then did community college have its own internal, like programs that it was doing, whether that's for, you know, the admins or finance or was there any like sort of customization done there, like internal
John: 21:12
Uh, so they had an old system. I won't name the system. Um but it, the, they bought it back in 1993 and the way they did this was you would buy the system and then any changes you wanted to make, you wrote the code and put it in with their code. 30 years of vendor code with our code makes. An awful set up when you're trying to do do patching and all that stuff. Um, yeah. I, I think while I worked there, I didn't have any ho like holidays off. We were always doing an upgrade during the, uh, holidays, so, yeah. Um, yeah, so a lot of customization there. Um, and then we, we ended up also writing like this whole, um, like Docker swarm sort of thing, where we basically built out like a whole bunch of micro services and all sorts of like cool little, uh, web interfaces for different things to talk to each other.
Pat: 22:29
Okay,
Kyle: 22:31
Yeah, I will say John showed me. John showed me that the world of Docker and it blew my mind being like, you know, server guy. I'm like, well, everything's a VM, right? You just spin up a VM and you put whatever service on there and you spin up another one, you put a service on there and he is like, Look at this type in like three commands, pops up a Docker container and he is like, there it is. And I'm like what? That took like 32 seconds. And he is like, yeah. And then if you want, we'll just, we'll just wipe it out and make another one. And like, you know, and I'm like what?
Pat: 23:01
Start
Kyle: 23:02
absolutely crazy.
Pat: 23:04
What kind of voodoo magic is this
John: 23:07
Yeah.
Pat: 23:09
I played with Docker a little bit and I, I would agree. I think it's, it's, it's way quicker than doing VM or God forbid, physical hardware, like cuz now in 2022, like it's taking forever for physical hardware to get to anybody so you need something spun up like yesterday, man, Docker is Docker is the way to go or, you know, cloud or you know, whatever. But yeah, Docker is pretty cool. It, it really is a nice container
John: 23:35
And the nice thing there too is, is when you build that container on your machine and you push it up to the cloud or wherever it is, it's gonna run identical between the two it's, you know, as a, as in development, you know, you always have the, it works on my machine thing. Well, you know, as soon as you get it up there, you're like, I'm hoping this is gonna work. It's probably not. But you know, uh, now with doctor, you don't really have any of that. It's, you know, you just have some configuration one time and you know, then you can just say, okay, whenever it goes to get it pushes out to docker it updates it's done so, so much easier now.
Pat: 24:20
There you go. Yeah, doc, Docker's pretty cool. I gotta admit it's, it's pretty wild for the couple times that I've played with it. Um, you know, in, in some tests and some, some lab environments and things of that nature, I would, uh, I would highly recommend Docker and, you know, learning Docker, cuz it does make your life easier.
John: 24:39
Yes.
Pat: 24:42
um, I had a question. Kyle, did you have anything? I, I had a question, but I forgot it. So I'm gonna try to think about it. Did
Kyle: 24:48
Yeah.
Pat: 24:48
something to
Kyle: 24:49
Um, so John helping people get started, um, you know, like you had this, this idea, this. um, program that you may wanna make some, some sort of grand thing that has a lot of moving parts. What's the best way to take something like that. That might seem so daunting and like a million moving billion lines of code or whatever, and break it down in a manageable chunk or make it so it's not so overwhelming for somebody trying to.
John: 25:18
yeah. So that's a good question. So, um, what I would say is, is, you know, You, you gotta start with the most basic thing first. Um, you know, I, if you're, if you started to get a little bit of development chops under you, you know, and, and you wanna stretch, you know, try like making the bare bone structure of it, keep that separate from whatever the shiny user interface is. Um, and then focus on that user interface and all that, all the pretty stuff last you, you really want stuff that at its core works, um, I would start there and then build onto it and, um, In, in my case, I'm not a, I don't make really pretty user interfaces. I'm very kind of utilitarian, but what, uh, what I ended up doing was I hired somebody at just to say, okay, here's a couple possibilities. And then I went out and made it look identical to what he was telling me. Um, you know, it, it, you gotta bounce ideas off of people and, and see what sticks. Um, and you know, you're the, one of the big things too, is, you know, once you build something that kind of works, try to get it out there, you know, don't be afraid to let people see it, work with it. Um, From my experience, people have been pretty nice Hey, you know, why don't you try this? And, you know, you just continually kind of build on, um, other people's knowledge and that eventually becomes stuff that you know, and, um, yeah. Try, try to avoid, uh, banging your head against the wall for too long.
Kyle: 27:19
Okay. Now, now you'd said about, uh, getting some other eyes on it and stuff like that. Is there a, is there a good spot for that? I mean, do you just get, and like kind of link it to people or just, you know, getting people to look at your code.
John: 27:34
Yeah. So GitHub's awesome. for that, I wish I had that back in the day. Um, but, uh, you. What I would do would, uh, I actually had a blog and so I have a blog, but I, I would put my code up there for people to use. Um, I wrote a, uh, like a system monitoring tool long time ago. Um, and you know, this was before, like you could put stuff up on GitHub. So, uh, I put the code up there and told people, Hey, come check it out, use it, you know? And, um, I had a couple people contribute, different little plugins for it, so it was pretty cool. Yeah.
Pat: 28:19
Nice. Uh, that's awesome. I remembered my question. So coming back to a couple minutes ago, uh, so, and I know software is a software guys are, and gals are a little different in the way they sort of come up or get their feet underneath them or cut their teeth, whatever analogy you wanna use. Uh, like, so for Kyle and I, and, you know, CIS admin network admin, even some cyber security or some other, uh, veins of it normally start at like a help desk sort of thing. And then sort of branch out from there. Is that like that in the software world, or you do you sort of like latch onto a place that needs a junior dev and, and sort of get that way, or like, do you get noticed from a, if you're in a help desk and wanna do software development, do you get noticed from that spot or do you have to take a different route or is it just, is. Is, is it different, I guess is my question
John: 29:14
Yeah. Starting off in help desk will work. um, you know, the junior dev spots are great. If you can get one, if you can't, you know, you, you find, find that foot in the door, um, and you know, you, you gotta, uh, apply yourself, you know, you, you can't just say, well, you know, I'm, I'm going to, uh, just focus only on doing the bare minimum, you know, you're, you have to be out there thinking kind of reaching for, okay, what would make, kick this up to the next level, you know? And, um, and working with people and trying you know, engage your coworkers, uh, you know, and then from there, you know, maybe do like, uh, a prototype of something and show like, The software dev guide that, or, you know, your manager, something that makes life easier. Like if you're working at a help desk and you're imaging machines make a script that helps you image the machines faster, you know, stuff like that, that just kinda helps establish you as somebody that can write a script, can write a program and, you know, E eventually you'll, uh, start moving up the ladder.
Pat: 30:36
Okay, that's good. Yeah. Cause I've always felt like devs take a little bit different path than, you know, some of the other veins of it. And I wasn't sure what the deal was as far as like, what's the path there? Is it, uh, is it help desk? Can you just hope and pray get noticed or her, is it something else to, you know, sort of set you apart from the crowd and, you know, cause ultimately I think, I think a mentor is a big one too. Right? We talk about this on the show all the time, grabbing a mentor and you know, letting them, you know, having them let your shoulder surf or, you know, Hey, you're writing code and then having the mentor say, yeah, this is gonna work, but you're gonna break here because X or, you know, whatever. So I think that's a big one. Um, trying to get somebody that is a little more long in the tooth getting, a hold of the area and saying, look, you know, you know, try to, you know, try to guide me. Right. Um, but now I think, uh, I think that's some good advice to, you know, like I said, a blog is another good one. We talked about that too. You know, put a blog out there, you know, websites are. Relatively cheap nowadays and then basically just write your, you're basically writing out your studies, right? What you're learning in a blog form and, you know, Hey, you stick with it a year or whatever it is. And you kind of look back and say, look, look where I was September of last year to where I'm at now in June of this year, July of this year. It's, uh, it's a growth thing. Right. And, and I've actually started a blog for my DevNet studies. So it's the, the site isn't up yet. Uh, I have the domain so I just gotta actually build the site and start putting shit up there. um, but that's, that's coming as well. So I think that, that, that works for me personally. Um, now whether people like to write in an actual journal with, you know, hard pen and paper, that's an option too. You don't have to do all this crazy fancy digital stuff, but you know, you can write it down in a pen and paper. So, um, I think a blog is a big one that shows your growth and, you know, even if you don't have any experience, right, that, that could be, that could be a proof of. Experience. Right. So say, Hey, I'm trying to break in, you know, Hey, look, I don't have any experience, but look, I have a blog I've done this X, Y, Z. Um, you know, and that that's sort of a track record if you will, of, you know, if you don't really have anything, right. That's a track record and that's at least a, a jumping off point, I think.
John: 32:49
Uh, one other thing I should mention too, is. Go and get involved with the open source community because there's tons of projects that need people for all sorts of tasks, you know, writing the technical documentation for it, helping like maintain a website for it, making bug fixes, um, working on enhancements, all that stuff, you know, will, uh, really help the community. And, you know, you can tie your name to that project then and say, Hey, uh, I actually worked on, you know, this project here, so, you know, it's, that's another avenue you can take.
Pat: 33:34
Yeah, there you go. Speaking of open source, are you even a developer? If you don't run Linux at your house, like Is that even a thing
John: 33:40
I dunno.
Pat: 33:41
like a prerequisite, you gotta run UTU Linux OS or bust. Is that we're talking about right now?
John: 33:47
yeah. Oh, we, we will start that whole, uh, a Buntu sent, uh, conversation. that's a war.
Pat: 33:55
that's funny.
John: 33:57
Yeah. Yeah.
Pat: 33:59
so Yeah. some battle lines have been drawn in that one. Yeah. Look out
Kyle: 34:04
right.
Pat: 34:05
now I think that's, uh, now he's just, that's some great advice. I think that's, uh, totally doable in today's world. I, I guess John, another question I had is, you know, obviously this it thing that we're a part of, um, you know, it moves so fast. It just it's lightening speed at how fast some of this stuff moves and it's just insanity, but like, do you, do you have a take on where the software role is going? Like, is there something that's like super hot right now that you think that's gonna catch on in the next, you know, five, seven, whatever
John: 34:39
yeah, I think the one really big one, I think that's gonna be coming in the next five, 10 years is gonna be like the, the quantum computing, you know? Um, I, I see that as it's starting right now to pick up and, you know, before, you know, it, like, I think they're gonna have a Moore's law sort of thing. Take effect there too, where it's, you know, they're gonna be able to double the transistors over a period of a year say, and then it just kind of keep continuing, um, I, I see that as being the next big thing. Um, from the, uh, from the code standpoint, I think, you know, Python is probably one of your top languages to be learning in the next couple years. Um, you know, things change all the time, but I think that one's gonna be, uh, having some long legs on it. Um, and you know, uh, a lot of things are open source and continue to be open source, which is fantastic.
Pat: 35:53
Yeah. Well, so what, what are your thoughts on AI as far as where the software people fit in with developing AI and, and that sort of thing? Like, are we, we talking like Skynet, like version two going on here. What's the you know, what's the what's what's the deal there? No, cause I, I think they're intertwined. I think AI is, is gonna be hot in the future. I think, I think in some aspects in some circles it's hot now, but I think in the future, AI is even gonna be further down the road, you know, talking, you know, Tesla and the auto driving cars and all that. That's all software based. You have to have somebody to write all that stuff. So I'm curious to see where your sort of your software engineer brain meets the AI brain or if there is, if there is a relationship, if not, that's fine
John: 36:38
uh, I think it was a week or two ago that, that Google engineer released transcripts with his conversation with Google's lambda, aI, where. and that, that transcript is pretty convincing. Like, you know, that that's like the alluring test on steroids. Like that thing is out there. Um,
Pat: 37:06
so
John: 37:06
oh yeah. But the, like the practical stuff, like you have AI tools that are going out there reading your code and you make like you know, you type something in and it says, did you want to do this? You know, it it's like a freaky version of Clipy from the nineties, you know, or that little, uh, and it made paperclip, but you know, it, it's, it's really kinda getting spooky now, you know, products like kite and GitHub has their, uh, like code completion stuff. And Amazon just pushed one of theirs out. So, you know, it's gonna make our code better. I'm not convinced it's going to take away all programming. I think programming's gonna stay for a long time, but you never know if something like a Google Lambda gets serious about coding, you may have a challenge.
Pat: 38:03
I heard that, uh, Amazon was creating like, um, like an in house made and it was all AI based. And like, it was like a robotic, I saw something, this was a few years back, but like I saw it was like a, it was a dog, it was a metal. Dog sort of thing. And like Jeff Bezos was like walking beside it and the dog was walking with him and I was like, this is outrageous. What is going on here? You know, it's like, and it was all AI driven and like, and, and, you know, that was the thing too, a couple years back where like, you know, now you have the Alexa and the Google home, you know, Google homes, things of that nature, all that stuff is in the house. All that stuff is, is programmed. All those, all those things that you can attach to your, to your Amazons and things of that nature, that's all, I'm assuming it's API, uh, relative, right? You're, you're just calling another services API and you're pulling down whatever. Um, you know, but all that has to be written by, by software folks. So it's like, like the op to me, like the opportunity is just wide open to literally do whatever you want in the software world. So if you're, if you have a structured mind in that, in that. Um, in that way, I, I think you can't go wrong with the software stuff, cuz there's just so much out there. It's just, and it's not stopping. And like we said, it's a, it's a software world going forward. The rest of us are just along for the ride. It's just, that's, that's the truth. just is what it is. Um, you know, it's just insane to me how far it's come in, such a tiny, short amount of time, right? I mean, John, you just said like you wrote the code for, you know, the browser compatibility back in 2010 and just like, wow, that wasn't that long ago. And you know, here we are talking AI, like you went from browser incompatibility to AI in like 10 years. You're like, whoa, that slows on.
John: 39:56
Oh yeah. blockchain stuff too. That's rolling out. Like that's going crazy. You know, I, I see that as being, um, one of the brave new spaces, you know, right now I think Bitcoin has some hiccups as far as it's being used for speculation, know? So like, I, I wanna see it being used as an actual currency and not as an investment tool. Yeah.
Pat: 40:21
Currency standalone. Yeah, yeah. no, I agree. I, yeah, I think the blockchain is gonna be huge. Obviously, crypto is all built on blockchain and, you know, rewriting and you know, all that kind of, you know, crazy stuff. And, uh, shout out to Dean who is a crypto. Maniac like that dude knows he knows his crypto. So he'll, I'm sure he'll listen to this. So shout out to my man Dean, um, who was Kyle's predecessor, uh, on this show, he loved crypto and, and, uh, that is on the list of topics to discuss on this podcast. So maybe, uh, if I can wrangle Dean into a room, well, we'll talk about a little crypto, you know, whatnot. So, uh, who knows, but, um, I, I think this has all been, been real good. So then sort of turn in your, your hat from a engineer perspective to, you know, some sort of upper management, right. Um, manage your it, right. Um, manager, director, VP, um, whatever fancy title, uh, that are out there today because you know, everyone's a little different, every spot's a little different. Yeah. You have a different, uh, you know, calling structures and whatnot. But, so I, I guess, do you have to have a special mindset in order to actually like lead people cuz you know, We've all been there. We've all had terrible bosses who just thought, oh, I was a good engineer. Now I can, now I can lead people and tell people what to do. And I'll be just fine like that. It doesn't work that way. um, so like, I'm curious, like, is there a special mindset that you had to like flip a switch and say, okay, look, I gotta step back from the day to day, which I, what I've been used to for the last 20 years. Right. And now I gotta deal with, you know, cohesiveness of a team, different personalities on a team, um, budgets, numbers, talking, talking tech, and getting your point across to people that are above you that are not tech people or software developers. Like, I'm curious on your thoughts on that. Um, cause that seems to be a pattern of things going that way today of, you know, you sort of have to dumb it down for the Fu and that makes sense, right? They're not paid to know what you know. Um, but the communication there has to be, you know, light years ahead of the communication you did as an engineer
John: 42:33
yeah, it's a big switch. Um, you know, you definitely have to have some soft skills and you gotta develop 'em, uh, at not just once you become that director, like you are continually trying to look at people and try to figure them out. Uh, and then, you know, see like what things, interest them, what things don't interest them. And then you basically start to, to chip away at it. Um, there's a whole bunch of like relationships. You gotta develop with people at, or above your level as well as people that are on the ground. Um, The one thing that I did I thought was really kind of helpful was to take a, a mental note of all the bosses that I've had. and I wrote down all the good things that they did and all the bad things that they did in my opinion. And I did everything they did well and everything they did poorly. I tried to do the exact opposite so, yeah.
Pat: 43:47
That's a good one.
John: 43:49
that, that takes you pretty far, I think. Um, and you know, it, it, you have to build trust, um, and that's absolutely paramount.
Pat: 44:02
is a difference in, like we said, engineering and then getting promoted. And so you worked with a team of five people and now of a sudden you're above them. Like, how do you split that? Okay. Now, you know, for the first two years of, of my job, we were partners or we were colleagues and now you have to listen to me, like, how do you how do you deal with those waters of asserting authority without coming across? As you know, Hey, this guy, you know, all of a sudden he is got a promotion, he thinks his, you know, his shit don't
John: 44:35
so, um, yeah, really. I don't think there that, um, you flip the switch and you're like, I'm the boss, you know? Um, for. For people do a lot of that, that thinking, uh, the thought work, you know, like doing software development and things like that, they are trying to solve. the same problems that you're trying to solve. You know? So it's, it's much more of collaborating with, with people and not just saying you're gonna do it this way. Um, and you know, it, it, at the end of the day, that's gonna build the best solution. It's not, not the one person like going down and complaining to everybody that works under
Pat: 45:33
Yeah, you always mental note. you You complain up. You never complain down that that's the way it works in the world.
John: 45:40
a lot of
Pat: 45:40
you, you bitch up. You never bitch down. That's right. broad shoulders. You just pump 'em up pump 'em up the ladder now. But I think there's a trust thing there too. Right. You know, now that you've, you know, you were with a group of folks and now you're, you've been promoted to this, you know, either a team lead or manager, whatever title that you want to throw yourself in. I think, I think the trust needs to be there as well. So they, so you can show them, Hey, you know, just cause I have this different title doesn't mean I'm any different now I just, you know, sign off on your time sheets,
John: 46:17
pretty much.
Pat: 46:19
um, I, I, I think trust goes both ways, right? You have to trust the people below you and then you have to trust, you know, or work on the trust to the people above you, I think. And I think that makes for a cohesive team or a cohesive, uh, um, you know, up down structure, if you will. Hierarchy, whatever word you wanna, you know, you wanna use, but at the end of the day, you know, you're there to solve problems and, you know, make, make the software a little bit better than it was yesterday. And however, you know, you can do that is, is the way you gotta do that. And I think that's, um, that's a good one going forward. And then that kind of leads me into my next question in that same space. Like, uh, what are you looking or what I should say, what are today's, you know, directors or, uh, managers looking for in the software engineer person? Is it like tech things or is it more of like soft skills and the tech stuff will, will come like what's what's the thought there.
John: 47:29
you know, I ideally, um, They, they would have a mindset of being able to solve problems. Um, you know, so for, for me, when I'm like interviewing somebody, I'm doing like little logic challenges with them, you know, trying to see like how you think, but then at the same time I'm looking at them from the perspective of how do they communicate, you know, are they speaking well? Or is there some other, uh, thing that, you know, like, I, if like, if you're sitting there and you're acting like a robot and your voice is very monotone, you know, like nobody's gonna want to talk to you in general. Right. Um, but what what'll end up happening is is, you know, at the end of the day that person's gonna have to go out and talk to people and try to figure out, okay, what is it that our customer actually needs? Um, and that's how you basically
Kyle: 48:34
Yeah,
John: 48:34
progress, you know, um, and that's what I'm kind of looking for. At least in my case with, you know, smaller shops, um, somebody that can do the, going out, talking to people and actually being able to sit down and, and write some code
Pat: 48:55
good point. I think. This, this was a little true in our case. Like there's always been this weird, like perception of, oh, that, you know, especially in the software dev. Space that they're a little introverted. So they, you know, they sit in a basement and code and, you know, all kinds of, you know, crazy stuff. I think that mindset is changing a little bit now in the world of, you know, especially software devs and, and, you know, people that, like, I think it's a little more outgoing now. You're, you're more part of a team oriented you're not sitting like in a basement and, you know, churning on code for 12 hours or whatever it is. So, you know, I think, I think the team initiative has to be there as well. I think working well with others and, and sort of, you know, the collaboration, especially in the, in the COVID era, the last, you know, two and a half years seems like, seems like 20 years, whatever. Um, you have to learn to collaborate when you're not sitting next to somebody or over a team's meeting or, you know, in a GitHub, right. You know, in a central repository of whatever flavor of choosing. So, um, I'm just curious on your. Take on that as far as, okay. Look, we were looked at as far as like basement dwellers, doing nerdy stuff now into like AI and making Teslas drive your car.
John: 50:17
Yeah. I would say I was probably one of those people that was like down in my basement writing code for, you know, 10 hours a day. Yeah. Uh, yeah, that, that's, that's how I got started. I, I really enjoyed that. The thing I will say is I I'm naturally introverted, you know, um, I have just learned to, to flip the switch, you know, so I can talk with people. I can have a good time with people, uh, at the end of the day, you know, Hey, if I can. An hour to down and write some code, Hey, I'm gonna do that because that's interesting to me. Um, and you know, the converse is also okay too, you know, if you're extroverted. Yeah. You can be an ex excellent coder as well.
Pat: 51:08
Sure.
John: 51:09
I think probably, maybe methodologies might be a little different, um, because like an, you know, the introverts tend to think a little bit in they're a little bit more in their own head space, whereas an extrovert would, you know, tend to like want to communicate out everything out all at one time and try to figure out okay. You know, uh, pulling this person in this person in just to talk it through. Um, whereas the introvert might start off like just all in their head and trying to get it. Just right to share with
Pat: 51:44
No, that's a good point. I think that's, uh, like I said, that that, uh, stereotype is sort of changing. I think it's changing, you know, for the better in, in, in that aspect of, you know, more, more team central and not, uh, you know, everybody, you know, one person knows everything. So you, that that person gets hit by a bus and your whole company goes down the drain. So, no, I think that's, analogy.
John: 52:07
That could be the same anywhere ,you know, on the networking side, on the software side. Yeah. Oh man. Heck even if a telephone pole gets hit the wrong way, everything goes down.
Pat: 52:21
Been, been there, been there for sure. Kyle, you got anything?
Kyle: 52:25
Um, so let's say like working with a team or managing a team. Do you just kind of give everybody a, a little like part to work on and then bring it together, or do you kind of have it in mind that like, this is the ultimate goal, so kind of, you know, architect the program in such a way that you know, that it's gonna connect to something else or do you just kind of like make the little units and then just make some changes so that they actually integrate properly.
John: 52:57
so, it depends. so, um, yeah, classic consulting answer, but, um, yeah, so I would say like for, for certain projects, right? Where. The stakes aren't very high, you know? Uh, I, I would be okay with having like one person just sit down and work on it. If, if, if this was a mission critical piece for wherever I'm working or for the project I'm working on, that requires two people at least to be sitting down. So like classic pair programming, one, person's typing the other, person's running shotgun. And they're basically like saying, okay, let's do this, this, this, and this. And they're collaborating the entire time. And, it seems to work pretty well. But that requires at least two developers so you gotta keep that in mind, too.
Kyle: 53:56
Now does that similar kind of thing, does that work like, uh, in an asynchronous fashion too? Or does it, you know, I mean, is, it has to be kind of real.
John: 54:04
I, you know, I prefer sort of that real time, uh, communication, just because it's kind of that stream of consciousness sort of approach to it. But, you know, I, if you can't have two people working on the same project at the same time, then what, you know, I would do is at least do a, what they call a peer review, where basically at some point you sit down with another person and walk through the code and just make sure like that person sees whether or not, you know, they think that you did it correctly or not. They may have some suggestions on making it a little bit better. Um, and, and going that, that way, you know, Because, you know, whenever you look at your own code, sometimes you're not gonna see the bug
Kyle: 54:55
Nice. Okay. So I remember, uh, what, what was the term that we used? Uh, was it, was it rubber duck or rubber chicken or something like that?
John: 55:04
rubber duck. Yeah.
Kyle: 55:05
Yeah. Can, can you explain that out?
John: 55:08
yeah, Um, Kyle, I, uh, I pulled you in on these a couple times, but, um, basically you, you just sit down and, you know, you're stuck on a problem, right? So nothing's working so worst case scenario, you have a literal rubber duck, uh, on your desk and you talk to that rubber duck about the problem. And you're like walking through code and everything. Better case scenario, you pull somebody else in. They don't even have to know anything about code, um, and, uh, you know, and you kind of show them what the problem is and kinda walk through it with them. And just that act of talking it out sometimes can jar the brain loose enough to come up with the solution. Um, but it requires actually talking it out. You can't just like, keep it in your head, um, not to encourage drinking, but there's also a thing called the bomber peak where, um, you drink just enough beer to alter your brain just enough to solve those really tough problems.
Pat: 56:21
you had me, I don't advocate drinking. You had me right there. Say no more. My friend don't tempt me with a good time. Cool. Well, right around that hour, mark. So John, this is, this has been awesome. I really appreciate your insight. This has been great. You're welcome back anytime. This, this is a great conversation. We'd love having you. Um,
Kyle: 56:44
at this point. nice.
Pat: 56:44
uh, do you have any socials you wanna plug like, uh, Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever?
John: 56:49
Sure. Yeah. Hit me up on LinkedIn. Uh, just, uh, Jay Glasgow. on there. That's my big one. I, I love, uh, LinkedIn.
Pat: 56:59
Yep. It's a good one too. Yeah. So if anybody wants to connect with John, uh, do a little more talking or whatever, uh, his LinkedIn profile will be, uh, posted in the, in the show notes. We we'll give you that nice, easy access. So, uh, again, this has been awesome, this has been great. Say welcome back. Anytime software is always, uh, intrigued me, but it's never been my, you know, sort of forte. So this is, this has been really good. So we appreciate you taking a couple of minutes and coming on and talking. Yeah.
John: 57:28
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having me. I appreciate this
Pat: 57:33
Cool. So yeah, everybody we're gonna get outta here again. Uh, thanks for joining us this week on the new and improved breaking down the bites podcast. So make sure you visit our website, breakingbytespod.io. So you could subscribe to the show, right? From there on any of your chosen platforms, there's links to all of them, uh, iTunes, Spotify, uh, Google podcast, Stitcher. Uh, or just a plain RSS feed is there as well. If you just need that, throw us some rating on iTunes. That would be cool too. Not sure if they still do the ratings thing or at least that if it fools with the, with the algorithm or not, but, uh, the ratings always look cool. So, uh, always throw us a rating if you, if you like it, uh, always looking for feedback, you can email us anytime. Uh, all of our links and stuff will be in the show notes. If you wanna drop us line, uh, again, uh, Twitter, uh, @breakinbytespod, uh, I'm layer8packet, uh, Kyle's @Danath256. Uh, hit us up. Our DMS are open. We we're, we're here to help in any fashion that we can. And then also. You know, if you like the show, uh, simply tell a friend, right? The word of mouth works just as good in today's, you know, crazy tech driven world that we live in. Um, I think sometimes it even works a little better, so it's all good there. So tell a friend about us. That'd be awesome. And then, uh, also we have a new, we actually spun up a LinkedIn, uh, page. So it's linkedin.com/breakingbytespod. Uh, we have, uh, some, some stuff up there, so you'll get, uh, notifications of some shows and, you know, when new show drops and, uh, just some articles that we come across, if we think, uh, worth sharing out there, uh, that's on there as well. So come say hi on LinkedIn for us. Uh, facebook.com/breakingdownthebytes. Uh, we have a discord server, uh, as well to come and hang. Uh, the invite is in the show notes and then there's also our survey out there as well, just to. Short, uh, things like 10 questions up there. It's all anonymous. We don't know who you are. We don't get names or collect any data. It just, uh, uh, it just shows us, uh, who's answering what questions and just, uh, gets us to tweak the show a little better to people's likings. And, uh, cuz when you're talking to a mic like this, it can kind of, yeah, you don't really know how you're doing unless people give you feedback. So feedback's always good. So, uh, help us help you. No, I just kidding. So all right. That's it, Kyle? It's been awesome, man. Uh, always a pleasure, John. This has
Kyle: 59:56
pleasure.
Pat: 59:57
Always cool. So thanks John for coming and uh, you're welcome back anytime and we will see everybody next week. See you guys.
John: 1:00:04
See it.