Episode 53: Are We Burnt Out?

In this episode, Pat does a solo show and talks about burnout in tech. Also touches on how to spot burnout and some things you can do to avoid it and recharge from it. 

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  Hey everybody. Welcome back to this week's edition of Breaking Down the Bites. I'm your host, pat. You can find me on Twitter at @layer8packet. It's the number eight Kyle. He's on Twitter at @danath256. Alex isn't on Twitter or any social media, so if you wanna get a hold of him, you can always find the show on Twitter and tweet us there at @breakinbytespod but none of that matters this week cuz I am solo by myself. That's right. Alex is in Disney on vacation and apparently he's having a splendid time, so shout out to him. And Kyle is away at a family function, so, cuz we didn't give you one last week. For Easter break, I figured I would do one by myself just to keep the numbers going and we don't wanna miss too many cuz our numbers are slowly climbing and we're getting our name out there. So appreciate everybody listening in. So, don't forget to subscribe on your platform of choice to our social medias. So Twitter, LinkedIn uh, Facebook we have a discord out there pretty much anywhere. We are there. So, find your platform of choice and come join us for some social media fun. So this week, like I said, I don't know if we'll go the full hour depending on how far the topic goes and how long I wanna talk. So here we go. But this week I figured I would touch on something that I think a lot of people struggle with. I wanna say struggle at different levels, right? Some people handle it well, some people don't handle it well at all. And it just builds and builds. And then obviously, you know, they blow up. This week I wanted to talk about tech burnout or just burnout in general. Right. So, I think it's really accelerated over the last two years with the Covid pandemic. I think uh, pressures and deadlines, meeting deadlines, projects, things of that nature really can take a hold on some folks depending on how their brain works and how they give their job a hundred percent, if you will. Most tech people I know give, you know, 120%. It's just the way they're wired, right? That's why, that's just most of the folks I've come across just really just want to do a good job and you know, just keep the wheel going, right? So I think over the last couple years, this massive tech boom that, that has happened, and now we're seeing the layoffs of that. So that can be stressful as well from a burnout perspective not knowing, you know, what your job looks like long term. And as I think AI sort of creeps in and automation starts to really take, hold, strangle hold of some industries I think. Tech is I still think tech is a great field to get into, but yeah, it has, it's definitely changed. And so, a lot of people don't like change. Personally, I love change. I ca I, I wanna change all the time. It's just the way I'm wired. But I know a lot of tech people that don't like change, they wanna come in, do their job, they know their role and go home, you know, that kind of thing. But if you don't change in this industry, I think you're in for a long, hard road. I really do. I think just speaking for the network field you know, me being in it since high school, which is actually this 20 years for me, which is kind of weird to say. You know, I think it's. It's hard for people to change. I think it's hard for people to really kind of go with the times and, you know, back when I was doing Cisco Net Network Academy in high school as part of a vocational technical school we were talking frame relay and delsy and, you know, all kinds of stuff and Various technologies that aren't here anymore, right? Uh, Pl ls, I mean, that's still here, but it's way less than what it used to be. MPLS used to be everywhere. It used to be the darling of the industry at one point, and now it's, it seems to be kind of going away in, in the wake of SDWAN and some other things that are out there get VPN and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So, but yeah, I mean, people just have a hard time changing with the times. I, I say this all the time that people want to get into tech. I say You, you better like learning because you're not gonna sit around and, you know, dot with the same stuff, you know, year in and year out. You're eventually gonna be made expendable. And, you know, that's when people start to stress out. So, tech burnout definitely is real, you know, we've all seen it. I've seen it. So we're just gonna take take this time to. Just a couple thoughts on you know, any of the airways, I almost said on paper, but we're gonna take a couple minutes here to kind of talk about tech burnout and obviously what it is and you know, kind of combating it, what we can kind of do to, you know, keep going forward, et cetera, et cetera. So, like I said, I think tech burnout really has come on in the last couple years with the pandemic, especially tech folks you know, transferring home, right? So, or working from home. That can be stress in itself. I really think, I think it can be different. Like if you're not used to working by yourself or working not in an office, I think that can really place some mind tricks on people. And then on the other hand, that, you know, the people responsible for moving people home, right? That can be stressful as well. When the pandemic hit, I was working for Rentokil, which is now Rentokil Terminex and we had to transfer, I don't know, it was a couple thousand people home. Like, you know, we just had to make sure that we had enough VPN licenses and enough bandwidth and throughput to, to really, you know, get all those people coming through the same pipe. So it wasn't too bad for us, but some of those desk side guys and making sure people had laptops and, you know, and or Chromebooks or whatever making sure they had everything they need to work at home monitors and docking stations and, you know, all kinds of stuff. So we, you know, on the network team, we had it relatively easy just to say, okay, look, you know, we need to bump our license account up to, you know, for, forget whatever it was. And then you know, make sure we had enough internet pipe. And that was pretty much it. Hey, here's, here you go. But it was way more stressful for some others some other teams that were closer to the user than, you know, than we were. So, I could definitely see that being a stressful situation from a tech perspective and making sure that people had what they needed to work and, you know, making sure that their bosses were, you know, off their asses and, you know, that kinda thing. Just keep the wheel going. I feel like that today too is quite the mantra I like to use. You know, tech guys used to be, you know, tech people, I should say in today's politically correct world. They used to really be revered. Right. And I had a friend who I used to play in a band with, and he was a wicked harmonica player. He's since passed the last year he passed. And he was a tech guy for, I forget where he was. It was somewhere local here, pa. But we, him and I used to shoot the shit about it, and he used to be a revered tech guy, like, oh man, you could do that. You know, that kind of thing. And he was one of those OGs that just, he, it clicked for him and he kind of got all the perks that came with it. Now the tech is a mainstay in every, in the everyday world. And, you know, you don't go anywhere without using a piece of tech. There's more people in it. So it's kind of, I think it's kind of lost it's luster a little bit. It's not as quote unquote special to be a tech guy or a tech person anymore. That doesn't mean it's not a great field. I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. Just mainly for the fact that I'm not good at anything else. But I definitely think it's lost luster in. The respect it gains. If anything, it's kind of gone the other way. I think it I think companies or businesses or users or whatever they take advantage of tech now, I think. I think it's you know, nobody remembers you for the good times, for the good things you did. You're only as good as your last fuck up, really. Right? So, people remember that, right? Because that caused an outage or caused them extra work or an inconvenience or some other nonsense. So people remember when you mess up, not necessarily all the good you did before that, whether they know about it or not as a moot point, you know, but, you know, you could do, you could kick off 10 perfect projects and complete them no problem. And it saves money and it saves time or. First thing you mess up when you hear about it, and your name is tied to that. So I think I think there's a major shift in that in, in persona attitude, I'm gonna call it. So what have you done lately for me, you know, business. So, keeping that in mind you know, and it's a thankless job like a lot of places or a lot of industries. It's a thankless job. Nobody calls when everything's working great, right? The only time you get called is when something's broke, right? So there's, and there's stress built into that, right? So, and we all know that some users don't take kindly to tech at all. Some people are just, they just don't get it. They don't want to. So you're kind of stuck doing that. So, just kind of talking out loud here, but. But I think some, you have some signs that are out there for folks in tech that you're really starting to kind of feel that burnout and maybe take a minute and step back. First one being extreme, like cynicism. Yeah. There's a lot of folks out there that just automatic negative feeling about their, you know, you know, just general cynicism, right? Nothing to do with appreciated. Everything's terrible, it's gonna change, et cetera, et cetera. I think it's a massive red flag for burnout, right? If somebody, if you or someone you know, and your team is. Seeing, you know, work is a glass half empty sort of thing, or completely out of water. It's, you know, is that time to question a bigger issue, right? So I think that totally is a big red flag. You know, cynicism comes in all forms, right? You got the constant frustration or you know, the snarky attitude detachment. Just a general lack of work I should say a lack of enjoyment in work, right? Yeah, dehumanizing other colleagues or customers, whatever you wanna call it, whether you serve an actual client base or internal employees, right? So, you know, Sally deserves it or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. I just think it's a, you know, the negative Nancy connotation it makes everyone else's work harder. Right. You're just oh man, I gotta put up with, you know, whoever I gotta put up with that person in order. Or, oh man, I need him for something, but I really don't want to go because he's just tough to work with, or he's a real bear, or whatever. I think that's a big one, right? The other big one just a couple off the top of my head. You're just chronically tired, right? You're just exhausted all the time. You know, barely getting up in the morning and, you know, sipping at coffee and, you know, we all like coffee, right? But, you know, you can point them out who they are, right? They're just, they don't wanna be there and, you know, just all the time. Just tired, right? So, you know, whether that's tired of various things, right? The big project or you're always on call or stuff keeps going down that you constantly gotta fix that sort of thing. You know, or you know, you're just tired all the time, right? Even when the workday is done or you come back from a holiday, right? You just, that person just seems to continually just be tired and not into it. I think that could be a red flag. So whether they have NoMo, you know, no motivation or the feeling that need to just keep on moving forward, moving on that, that comes in different flavors. But yeah they can't concentrate or Like, oh my God, I can't wait till the weekend and it's like Monday at two o'clock. You know, that kind of thing. It's like, oh you've got a far way to go there, buddy. Yeah, just no energy to be productive, you know, at a consistent level. So, I think that's a big one. Negative self-evaluation. Oh man, this is a huge one. In this industry there is massive high performers, right? I think there's people that are just, they're just built differently. And personally working with Alex at two of these places, I think he's just built differently. His mind just works differently than most people's. So he's definitely a high performance, high drive kind of guy. See, he's not of a hearing. He gets credit, right? So, You know, but on the other side of that, if you're working with a bunch of high performers, you could always have that feeling of, oh, I'm not doing enough. Or, oh, you know, my, my performance is not up to par with theirs and things of that nature. And I always try to say, look, if you're the smartest guy in the room, you're in the wrong room. But to a degree, you gotta give yourself credit for being in that room. There's a lot of people won't even be in the room with, you know, with people smarter than them. It's just the way they're built. So, you know, and it's not a feeling of incompetency or you know, or like you're not achieving anything. It, they're, again, you're just kind of, you're built differently when you have that negative self-worth, I guess. Or if you get that working all the time and getting nothing done or everything you do is wrong, you know, that kind of thing. That could be a sign of, you know, some burnout. You know, you may need to kind of hang it up a little bit and step back and recharge. Again, just a couple things. You know, the inadequate, you know, inac feeling ina inadequate, boy, that's a mouthful in your role, right? The work that you do feels chaotic and high pressured, right? And that's gonna vary on industry of where you're at. Big tech being one of them cuz they're constantly innovating. So I'm sure there's quite the chaotic environment there and high pressure to get out that next version of chat. G P T. Yeah, I slipped it in there. See that? You're feeling like you're doing far too much for too many people. Man, I get that all the time. You're just like, man, now I got my job and now I gotta do this person's job too. You know, that kind of thing. So, you get that quite a bit. Feeling like your efforts may not make a difference, right? That's a part that's all part of that negative self-evaluation. So just be wary of that. That's quite quite common in today's world. And I also think social media has not helped with that particular piece of it. I don't think we celebrate the, not to say celebrate, but I don't think we talk about the negatives quite as much as all, all you hear on social media. It's a place of perfect, right? So you see, hey, I did this, or Hey, I passed this cert, or I got this big project done, blah, blah, blah. But what you don't see is. You know, that project has been sitting around for six months cuz you found three ways to do it the wrong way, you know, that kind of thing. So I don't think the negative gets talked about as much. All you hear is the positives. So the positives on social media can think that, you know, these people are living in a perfect world and you're just like, oh man, here I am failing at life. And these people are doing some awesome things. So don't get discouraged by that. Social media is not a it's not a it's a not a morality post. It's not a place to, you know, throw your marker up to say, okay, look, I have to live up to this person. You know, that kind of thing. So just be wary of that. You know, there's far more positive on social media than it is, than is negative. I think that's part of it. I think you people start, have to start talking about the negative or else the positive doesn't. You know, doesn't really mean much, right? You know, you have to, I don't wanna say celebrate your failures, but you have to learn from your mistakes to get to the top of the mountain, right? You just don't climb Everest at the first try. You know, you take notes and you keep going and eventually when you do succeed, it feels that much sweeter cuz you know, of all the hiccups and stumbles you got to get there. So that's another big one. Just a couple things to watch out for as well from a leader perspective. So, if you're managing people you know, here's a couple of things just from my own experiences and what I kind of jotted down. If you're seeing some of your teammates or people that you're, that report to you they've increased on the job accidents, so human error, right? So we've all done it. I've done it more times than I care to admit or count. You know, it happens. It just, it is what it is. But it increased mistakes at work and can be a red flag to say, Hey, you know, let's check in on this person to see what the deal is. If you have more turnover than usual I think turnover is big in today's world. You know, there, there's various reasons to that. But if you are having more turnover than you normally would, people aren't staying for very long. Or you have multiple people leaving it, you know, within a couple of months of each other, and it's just like, oh, okay, let's take a time out here and see if there's an underlying. Speak, you know, coming from a guy who's had six jobs in 10 years, right? And yes, I did count them before I recorded here. So, that's true. I've had six jobs in 10 years. And most, you know, some of them were due to, you know, things outside of my control management changes above me or, you know, whatever. But some of them were just like, oh man, this is a dumpster fire. I gotta get outta here, and that kind of thing. So just be on lookout for that lower quality work from the people that do report to you, right? If they're just kind of mailing it in, or the the hot word now is quiet, quitting, right? So they're around, right? You're giving 'em a paycheck, but they're just, they're doing just enough keep keep you off their back. So, you know, just kind of mailing it in, that kind of thing. Uptick in sick days, right? Decreased productivity, poor customer service. Just a couple of things I rattled off here. So, like negativity spreading throughout the team, right? That's another big one. Lack of participa participation, et cetera, et cetera. And I've had most of these on this list just kind of throwing things out on paper. But you know, definitely the big one for me is when the small talk disappears, right? Cause I'm a naturally a personable guy. I talk to my team quite a bit you know, and it's usually all day long and sometimes they even get sick of me. They're just like, oh man, shut up. I hope not, but maybe I don't know. But when I've really had enough of a place my, that, that small talk just stops. I just, I don't engage, I don't participate. I'm just like, you know what? I just wanna do my time and go home. You know, that kind of thing. And it's not necessarily because of the team. It's just because I'm just fed up with, you know, what the job is feeding me or whatever. So yeah, the big one for me is, you know, you stop talking to your team, small talk, you know, Hey, how was your weekend? Or whatever. That kind of thing. That, that's a big one. I guess we wanted to touch on why we have burnout, especially in the tech sector. And I think it's, I think it's a combination of things, right? It all kind of wraps up to one, it wraps up to chronic stress, right? You're always stressed out about something, right? White knuckled or whatever. You know, but we're trying to like, what's the cause and how long has it been sort of going on? That's kind of, The real question lies, right? I think there is a, like right from the get-go, I think there's a sink or swim mentality right out right outta the gate, right? Especially with folks coming into the ranks or, you know, in college or, you know, in some sort of STEM program that they have. So, and there's a statistic here that I found that 40% of students are leaving those programs within the first, within the four years because of that sink or swim mentality, right? So, you know, but it's interesting to, to see that, you know, it's become a business model of sorts in a lot of industries and occupations. You know, they're saying, Hey, you gotta give up time, you gotta give up other things in your life in order to do X. Right? So, that comes from, you know, slaving away at a nine to five or, you know, your regular hours at work, and then expected to pick up the phone when it rings after hours, right? So, case in point when I was at Evolve on their field operations team our main responsibility was installing voice, a hosted voice. So, and we were a, they were a national company at that point, and one of their biggest clients that had multiple sites throughout the states. A lot of them were in California or on West Coast time. And so, you know, I would do my regular in-office. You know, eight to eight 30 to four 30 or nine to five, whatever it was, and then go home. And if I had an install that night nobody puts a new phone system in the middle of the day, right? It's all at after hours. So six o'clock, California time is nine o'clock Eastern time. So I was on the phone, you know, walking somebody through, plugging it here, plugging in there, plugging a phone, making sure it registers, gets an ip, the whole deal, blah, blah, blah. You know, and that might have been a two hour process depending on how well it went that night or not. So, that was a big one. You know, and the wife, most of the time, the wife went to bed. You know, didn't see me till the next morning. So, you know, it's a family thing too, right? Your family has to understand what this job entails as well, depending on how far the chain you go. And it seems to be a man, it makes sense, right? The further up the chain you go, the more the more demand and the more sort of after hours you're doing. So, you know that, that's an interesting one. So again, the after hours sort of baked in, right? But these companies in the last couple of years are just that's expected. So I've been at companies that pay you on call and then some companies don't at all, which, I mean, it is what it is, but it's just, you know, you want these people 24 7 and you know, not really paying them. What they're, you know, not accounting that into their paycheck. So just, I'll throw that out there. But I think in terms of causes in the workplace themselves I think the big ones are poor leadership, work overload. We just kind of, I just kind of talked about a toxic culture, which is a huge one. Toxic cultures are just, oh, they're such career killers lack of career growth and an insufficient reward, right? I think that people look at that as well. Just say, Hey look I'm busting my hump for 16 hours a day, and. You know, not getting a penny or not getting any time off or, you know, not balancing that out with, you know, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a couple hours during the week to balance that time. You can't because if you're, you know, if you're a one or two man department, you know, you're leaving the other one on the island, or there's nobody here to, you know, nobody here to write the ship if you're taking off for a couple hours to balance that time. But just from a poll that I saw on online and it's an interesting one. The main source of employee burnout at workplace workplaces and a whopping 22% is poor leadership and unclear direction. Right. You get that a lot. I've seen that time and time again. I feel like it's a theme in today's places where they just. You know, there's no clear direction of where they want to be in five years. So if they don't have a direction, you can't plan for that, right? From an IT perspective in the perfect world that we don't live in, right, I'll say that. But in a perfect world, technically, the IT department technically stays ahead of the curve slash business for lack of broader term. Just enough, just slightly ahead of that curve. So then if something drastic happens they buy a company or suddenly sales goes through the roof you can absorb that, right? And just keep moving. But a lot of places basically just see it as a cost center which it is, don't get me wrong, it totally costs money to, to run both from a technology and a people perspective. But but I don't think companies realize how much tech can do for them cuz they don't understand it or they don't listen to the people who do understand it, and therefore they're not willing to pay for it. So I feel that's a big one too. Like, okay, look, you're given a, you know, you're given a budget of X, and then they come in and say, okay, look, I want to do this, and this, and here's the money to do this. And it's like, well, you want the Ferrari performance on a Yugo budget. Like, that's just not gonna work. Like I, you know, I can make some things work, but. You know, don't put me in that position where things are constantly breaking and you know, cuz you don't wanna put the money towards it and, you know, off we go. And it's just a vicious cycle, right? So, I think there's a lot of that. I think there's a lot of places out there that, that do that, that expect the Ferrari, you know, performance on the clown car budget and that, that leads to massive burnout. I know a few people that just have straight up and left their place because it's like, look, I'm working with 10 year old hardware and they just keep, we're just keep reviving this stuff and it just works. Oh, let's get us to the next quarter. Oh, get to the next quarter. And that next quarter never comes. It never ends until it ac, until that gear actually breaks and there's no way forward. Then you have a major outage, you're losing money by the minute. And then the sea level people are going, well, why do, what do we pay you for? This stuff's down all the time. What do you want from me? You give me parameters to work and this is what I can make work. You know what I mean? So that's a big one. The other one is, you know, poor leadership. From a people perspective I'd love, so out of those six out six jobs in 10 years, I'd left quite a few of them due to poor management and, you know, not seeing the worth of their people underneath them and only really caring about themselves. So, I mean, that's just the way the business game is played nowadays. But it is what it is. And then you just, you know, then it's your prerogative to move on and hope the next place isn't like that. So, poor leadership is a big one. Not knowing how to manage people is a huge one. Like I've left jobs cuz people don't know how to manage people. You have people of all walks of life on your team, right? Introverts, extroverts, hard workers, just enough to get buyers, you know, that kind of thing. And nine out of 10 managers can't handle that. They can't handle those different personalities. That takes a massive undertaking to really understand what your people are doing and how to get the most outta your people. And most mo, most managers can't. So that, that's a big one too. You know, kind of, again, busting your hump and then, You know, people on your team not busting their hump, or at least not at your level, and y'all get the same raise at the end of the year, or, you know, nothing's ever done about it. And so it's like the group project, right? One or two people do it, and five or six people sit there and you know, chat until class is over, right? It's the same principle. So that's a big one. That's a burnout factory for sure. Work overload that kind of goes into the same thing, right? That's a burnout, that, that's a major red flag. Toxic culture. I can't tell you how many cultures I've been in that and these businesses like to say they have a great culture. Most of the time their culture sucks. It's terrible. And piece of Friday is not gonna. That culture, it just isn't. Now when you're overworking people for six, you know, 16 hours a day and you know, all this stuff on their plate and, you know, Friday pizza just doesn't cut it. So toxic, you know, culture as well. I've been a part, a couple of those. I've been a part of one it won't, I won't name it, but you used to walk into the boss's office. He, you say, okay, look, I have a good idea for X, Y, and Z. He's yeah, it's a great idea. Great idea. And then he told you what you want to hear. He walked out, the next person would walk in and he told that person what they wanted to hear, and often it start, it, it was conflicting information, so he never could quite, you know, he was basically fooling everybody that walked into that office and just like, how long is this? Sideshow, you know, clown show gonna go on. So that's a big one. The toxic culture is a big one. Water cooler talk of, you know, this, that or whatever. You know, that sort of thing. And I think this one's true too. This should be higher on the list than what it is. But at 15% comes into the lack of career growth. I think that's probably closer to 20 or it should be anyway. Cuz again it goes from those poor leaderships, right? So you're you don't have a career, you don't have a, a way up, right? There's no way to get promoted or no way to, you know, whatever, because your direct boss or supervisor is sort of in your way, right? So, yeah, so that's a big one. So this is a couple, couple big ones on this list and just a couple of percentages on which one's the big ones. So just Throwing that out there as well. I got kind of shift a little bit to fighting some of that tech burnout I should say. What, like some things you can do and some things I had to do. Cuz I was the hamster on the wheel that never got off the wheel. I just went and went and went until I eventually was like, what am I doing? I gotta get off this hamster wheel. I can't keep doing this. Cuz I was, I literally was burning out and talked to my wife. She was like, oh my God, this is insane. Most of that came around, it was work related. And the other half of that was cert studies. I never got off the hamster wheel for that either. So it was working eight hours a day and then coming home and study until 10 11 at night and do it all over again and day in and day out. And you can only do that for so long before you really start to feel the effects of that. And it's not just you, it's family related as well. We didn't have kids at that time. But if you have kids, they're certainly gonna notice it. So I would definitely recommend finding a balance on that. So that's a that's a big one. But that kind of leads into my first thing, right? You have to set boundaries between home and work, right? You know, and for those that worked from home, from the pandemic, that got a even a little worse, those boundaries, cuz they started to blur, right? Cuz you worked at home and now your home is home, obviously. So, just a couple of things that, that I did. And so. Where I'm at now, they give us a separate phone for work things. But I've been in places where they do both. You can put your email right on your personal phone. But I basically now just keep my work phone downstairs if I'm not working. Or else I'd be checking every 10 minutes when I'm upstairs. Right. And try to be with the family. So, email messaging platforms, all that stuff. Notifications, whatever if you're on your own personal phone notifications for that stuff go off on non-working hours. Right. Like I said, I keep the, I keep my phone down here in the basement and I'm like, it'll be there in the morning. Right and, you know, usually the other part of that is you know, I would set out of office emails for. You know, for the off days or weekends or vacations, right? You know, that, that helps with the separation of boundaries, right? Set periods in my calendar to automatically reject meetings. So like for downtime, you know, things of that nature. Again, if you're on call or you have a change, you know, change night, you know, most places have like a steady change window whether that's Wednesday night or Thursday night or whatever period of time. Then, you know, I've had a few bosses say, you know what, yeah, go and, you know, during the week, just balance it out, you know, kind of thing. So if I was tied up with a change for four hours in that week, I would, over the next, you know, couple of days, I would then take four hours of personal time back and do whatever. So I would, you know, for those periods of time say, okay, I'm gonna take an hour this day, two hours this day whatever. For those periods of time I put my calendar to reject anything in those meetings. So, If it's that important, they'll find another slot. Right. This is the big one too. If you're like, you know, I'm fully remote now, like I only go in when I have to. Whether it's a meeting or a lunch or, you know, something goofy, it's a handful of times a month if that. If you're hybrid that kind of thing I highly recommend setting up a separate room for your office and where you're working. And then don't go in that room, if you will, for like, recreational activities. Right. Now depending on, you know, the way your layout is or your house or whatever, that, that may be easier said than done, but try to not to be in that room when you're not working. That, that's the main goal there. I guess, you know, what you can kind of go from, but yeah, I would separate the, you know, separate the cool stuff from. That office, cuz that's a work only zone. Right. You know, the other thing too I thought about from a, what you can do to fight burnout is like automate what you can at your job. Right? So especially me in the network space, automation has been real big in the last couple of years. I'm trying to learn more automation. Not that I have a whole lot of time for it, but I do try to automate when I can. And so that sort of takes out some of the burnout of the mundane tasks that you have to do all the time. So I try to, I would say automation is your friend when it comes to that thing. Right. When it comes to that sort of those repeatable tasks and that takes a little bit more off your shoulders as far as, oh, I gotta do this stupid, you know, whatever it is. So that gives you a moment to breathe and sort of dial it back in a little bit. Cause you don't have to do those tasks if you automate them. So that's a, that's an interesting one. I'm trying to work on myself. I would also say you like reach out to others, right? It's an odd feeling when you feel like you just exist to, to work. So if you feel that way, then it's kind of hard to value yourself outside of that. So, you know, again, try to. Reach out to people that are outside of your work circle, family, friends, et cetera. That starts to play in the real you space, real you being in quotes. Instead of just people just thinking about the work you again, work you in, in, in quotes you know, but there's always that time where if you're feeling burnt out, you know, you reach out to a doctor or counselor psychologist psychologist, et cetera, et cetera. Mental health has really taken taken center stage in the last couple of years, and they all lock the center house. So, that can definitely play on people's psyches and moods. So, you know, it's really common so it helps to know that you're. Alone in that space. So I definitely some sort of counselor or psychologist or, you know, something of that nature would really help. So, and lucky for me, there's a trained counselor, psychologist right next door. But him and I usually talk about nonsense BS over beers. So it's not it's not a full, it's not a true psychologist session, but it does help. So I don't get over there as much as I used to before kids. But every now and then, he I ring the bell and he answers. So it's always a good time. So shout out to Mike, my next door neighbor. So, yeah, and I would just say, you know, from a colleague perspective you know, I would ask, I, you know, ask for help or simply talking to them about your issues or problems is probably not, you know, is. If you get too much, it gets too much of a drag. But every now and then, I think it's a good move. Just say, Hey, you know, just, you know, shoot the shit or you know, Hey, what do you think about this? Or am I overreacting about X or whatever? That kind of thing. So, and I think that goes both ways, right? So if you have a, if you have a colleague that you kind of trust that you can bounce things off of, I think that really helps with some of the psyche and the day-to-day grind. Now this next one depends on how much of relationship you have with him or her, but talk to the boss. Right. So, most of my supervisors or bosses I've had decent relationships with. There's one or two that I really just, I really don't care for, but most of them have been pretty decent. You know, but they don't know you're struggling until you un like, until you tell them or unless you tell them. Again, this whole mental health thing that's sort of thrust itself in the front burner, it's really not a sign of weakness, but it's, you know, saying, Hey, I need some help, or sign of maturity, whatever you wanna call it. You know, most bosses want you to succeed at you know, at your job too. Which is in their best interest to make sure that you're on the up and up. So, most of the bosses that I've come across don't mind having the heart to heart. So it's, that's an interesting move over the last couple of years that has really, you know, become pretty common. So, you know, but I also understand the fears on the other side of that, right? So it's, you know, it's not uncommon for employees to feel that they're jeopardizing their jobs, right? By telling their boss they're not doing so hot. Right? That's probably not the best feeling that you could have. You know, But it's a lot more trouble for you to burn out and quit on them than just coming to tell, just coming to talk to them, right? So I think there's balance there. You know, you know, if you get up and quit, then they're gonna start the whole hiring process over again, putting out an ad, interviewing people, spend months training them to, you know, to do their jobs or get used to the department quirks and whatever. So there's definitely skin in the game for your boss to make sure that you're doing all right and keep it on the straight and arrow. So I would recommend talking to them and at least getting a feel for them and see if they can help you out or whatever's burning at you. See if they can at least lead you in the right direction or put some of your fears to bed. So it's an interesting one there as well. So, I mean, really in the grand scheme of things, right? Making a few concessions, right? To make sure you don't burn out is really in both your interests, right? That kind of thing for various things that I just mentioned. So, you know, some of the things you can kind of discuss, right, is, you know, moving some of your tasks to other teammates or maybe even outsourcing it, right? Bringing in a contractor, whatever. That, that's always an option depending on depending on company structure and, you know, that sort of thing. Change in deadlines if they can be changed, right? Change in deadlines to make sure that you're not, you know, super overwhelmed. Cuz if you have six projects you're working on, then they're all within the same deadline, are all within the same month. They're just like, ooh, that's, that is tight. So, that's an option. Again, reinforcing those boundaries, right? So, people come to you less often, particularly in off hours, right? I've had that quite a bit where people know like, you. People that you interact with and you help consistently, they know which ones are good ones in your department and which ones aren't. So who do you think they're gonna go to? And next time they have a problem, they're gonna go, the good ones, they're coming to you. So, and most of the time that's not real process. It's, you know, most of the time they've gotta put in a ticket and it eventually gets to you depending on your role, right? You may be a third line support or whatever but people bypass that and come right to you and chat you in teams or Slack or whatever you use and saying, Hey, I need this. And it's like, oh man, you know, like, I, you know, there's a process here, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, just reinforcing boundaries. Cuz if you let people if you give people an inch, you're gonna take a yard. That's just nature, that's just human nature. So, you always have to be reinforcing those boundaries. So whether that's getting your supervisor involved to say, Hey, This person reached out to me directly. This could have been handled by a lower level or whatever. Then you know that, that's a discussion for process and that should be on your boss to take that the rest of the way. Right? Change in roles and responsibilities to, to put to bed what isn't working for you. Right? So if that's doable you know, another one, another option is taken paid time off to rest and recharge, right? So, you know, gimme a week at the beach or, you know, whatever it is. That, that's how, that, that's always a good one or an option at least. I think the last couple of years have been good with this, especially in the IT space. Just cause of the nature of the beast, the flexible hours right. So using flexible hours to work when you feel most productive or functional, right? So, case in point for me, you know, I don't usually start till. Around nine till, you know, some days I take the kids to the babysitter and then I come back and take the dogs for a walk and get them settled and they eat their breakfast and all that kind of stuff. I'm usually not down here till nine, sometimes nine 30. But, you know, I'll either work through lunch or you know, or like I said, the, our change window is a certain night of the week. if I'm working that change that, that night, then, you know, the rest of the week I'm, you know, I go for walks or or after the kids are in bed, I'll come down and, you know, hammer out a thing or two depending on what's going on. Or if I don't, if I feel like I, I've been away from the desk for too long that day, I usually come down at night and bang out on a thing or two. Cuz it's nice thing cuz nobody's, nobody else is online. So my teams isn't blowing up 3000 times a minute for people that need all kinds of shit. Yeah, so that's kind of nice. You can focus when you know you are working, when others aren't, but it works for you, right? Not necessarily, cuz you have to, cuz you want to be down here and doing things. So, so the flexible hours thing is a big one as well. So, the other one here giving you more sort of autonomy or recognition, meaningful work that's gonna differ per company, right? So that, it just depends on the environment and the industry that you're in. And last one here is kind of, I feel like this is a hard one because like everybody wants you to be everything all the time. But I would ask for clearer job expectations. Say, look, what do you expect of me? Right? So, you know, There's only so many projects we can get done in a year or only so many tickets you can resolve in a timely manner or whatever the case may be. So I would ask the boss to say, Hey, you know, can you gimme a little clearer expectations and it should not be answer the phone whenever it rings. Right? That is not the correct answer here. So, but again, you know, you have people internally come to you and asking for all kinds of stuff because you're the go-to person. You've helped them before and they're not gonna stop. So it's like, all right, you know, how long do I put, how long do I do that? Or, you know, so you have to have a clear job expectation to kind of shrink those, I don't wanna say responsibilities, but kind of, you know, clean up some of the chaos that leads to this burnout. So just be wary of that as well. Nothing wrong asking for a little clarity. So, this is the big one. I think this is the big one, and I'll wrap this up. This is the last topic for this one, but you have to find a company that values you. Right? Let me say that again. You have to find a company that values you and, you know, sometimes it's not you, it's them. Right? I think one of the biggest parts of burnout in tech is feeling that you don't matter and you're being treated unfairly. And like we said, the work is just, the work environment is just toxic. It just is. There's a lot of places like that just don't care. You're just a number. You're, you know, The minute you walk out the door, your seats not even gonna be cold, and they're gonna have another body in there doing the same shit that you did. Again, I've been in a coup a couple places like that, and I understand that they have a business to run and in recent years, it is just a cog on the wheel. But it doesn't have to feel that way. Right? If you brought up your issues and nothing's going to change, maybe it's time to investigate your other options. You know, the other part of that is when you're sort of escaping the prison, right? Escaping a terrible job, it can be tempting to take the first offer you get, and that can be a mistake cuz then you're just leaving one shit show for another. And I've done it, I've done it. I've, you know, I was so desperate to get outta places. I just took the first thing that came along and then I realized it was just, Another shit show with another coat of paint. And I was gone in the next, you know, in the next year. Anyway. You know, and this goes back to what we talk about on this show at Arias points all the time is when you're interviewing for a job, you have to be interviewing them as well, right? You kind of have to get as much info as you can to say, okay, these, this place doesn't have the same red flags as the other place. And I get it. You can only tell so much from an interview, right? And I think the first six months at your new place, probably that honeymoon phase where you don't know any better. But then as that slowly starts to wear off and you really start to see some of the skeletons that this place, you know, that your new place has, then it's a matter of can you live with those skeletons or. You know, is this another shit show and you're looking for another job in a year? I think it, you know, you definitely have to be confident, right? And know what your happiness is worth. Right? I think that's a big one. But you know, as you're going into these new roles, are you trying to look for a new role? Like trying to get as much info on the company culture as you can? Are there like company events? Are there happy hours? You know, what's their attitude towards overtime in flex hours that we talked about? What are your hours like? Does it, you know, is there a set nine to 5, 8 30 to four 30, whatever? Does it include weekends or holidays, things of that nature? How much holiday leave is there? Right. So here in the us depending on the vertical or the space you're in, Some places get more holidays than others. Currently working for the bank that we're off every federal holiday. So, that, that tends to be more than the private business. So that, that's something to think about as well. You know, is it on Always on call situation? I've been at places that are always on call cause you're the guy or you're the gal and no one else knows what you know, which is a blessing and a curse I guess. You know, so you're kind of always on call, right? Crunch times, things of that nature. How many duties are you expected to perform, right? Is there, you know, the classic line, right? Additional duties as needed, right? Like, what does that even mean? What does that include? And I think. This one may matter more to some people than others. But do you believe in that company's mission or product you know, do they donate to charity or do they support various causes? Right. How, you know, are you proud to say I work for X? Right. That sort of thing. How do they recognize their employees, if at all? Right. So, I've been in a few places that recognize their employees quite well. The best company culture that I was a part of before. It got stale, at least to me was a Volvo ip. They had that startup feel to them, so they worked hard and played hard, you know, that kind of thing. And every quarter they had company quarterly meetings and they did what they called rock stars. So basically it was from every department you picked the best. You know, they had the best person chosen from every department, and then they, they got whatever was was offered that. So like for example I'm a big hockey guy, a big ice hockey guy here in the States. And so they had company seats to the Philadelphia Flyers since they were like a half hour outside of Philly. So, So when I won the Rockstar a couple times, I always took the flyers tickets cuz they had ice level seats. So like that was my reward, right. For being in the rockstar of the quarter, whatever it was. So, you know, or I think the other thing was like, like a couple hundred buck gift card to Amazon and there was one or two other things I couldn't remember, but I always took the hockey tickets cuz it was always a great time. So stuff like that, like how do they, you know, how do they recognize their employees, if at all? Or like when I was at Venerable, they had this they had a thing called Kago or Kajo, I forget what it, something like that. And basically it was a kudos system. Say, hey, Thanks, whoever for helping me the other week, or you really did, you really pulled through with this project, blah, blah, blah. And then they would leave you like a little review. And then, so if you tallied up so many of those from your either colleagues or from, you know, people that you served in, you know, in, in our case it was internal employees. You tallied up so many of those, then they gave you an Amazon gift card or they gave you, you know, various, a visa a hundred dollars visa or whatever it was. But there was some sort of monetary, some gift there, so that was cool too. So, just a couple of places that, that I've done to have that, you know, reward system if you will. So yeah, so the employee recognition is a big one to to going on. So, that was kind of it. I think this was a good one. I think burnout is quite, The hot topic at the moment. I think it's really gotten heightened over the last two and a half to three years. I definitely think it was worth talking about and needed to discuss what other people do or other things that really kind of, you know, the warning signs that you're, that you are, you know, in, in that burnout territory, right? That kind of thing. So, I think that's it. I think that was it. Wow. We were just it's one hour on the dot, so till I get this edited, it'll be probably somewhere around 55 minutes or so, depending on how far I wanna edit. So, but no, I wanna thank everybody for joining this week. On the new episode, breaking Down a Bites, make sure you visit our website, breakingbytespod.io, where you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, or Google Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Or even just you need a plane RSS feed that is up there as well, so you never miss a show. If you could throw us a rating on Apple Podcast, that would be great. Or simply tell a friend about the show as well. That would help us too. Again, sure to follow us on all of our socials, right? LinkedIn, Twitter Instagram, Facebook discord servers out there. The survey is still out there. So if you like the show or wanna see something different or if you hate the show or some sort of feedback, let us know. We don't know who you are. 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